i think you are right to a certain extent. we have to be careful that we don't judge situations that we are really uninformed about. not that i agree with this situation, not that i want children brought into this world on a whim. it's a tough call. do i think the woman was wrong. probably.

Well said. I don't think I want a placenta smoothie. No matter how hungry I get.

When my wife and I were going through fertility treatments, I said to our doctor, "I don't want to end up on the 'Today' show with multiple kids."

She said, "We consider anything more than twins to be an unsuccessful treatment."

I concur.

Single birth, both times, vasectomy, the end.

Litters of 6 and 8? INSANE under the best of circumstances, which this clearly isn't. Glad I only have to watch from a distance.

Yes. Yes, yes yes. Sad and unfortunate and unethical on the part of the doctor? Absolutely. Representative of women seeking fertility treatments? Not on your life. Thank you, Heather, for sharing your perspective.

Quite frankly, the woman disgusts me. Sure, I don't know her. But what person brings eight more lives in to the world when she already has a hard time taking care of the six (3 of which are DISABLED) children she already has. And now their house might be taken away. What? She's begging for tv show deals and looking at million dollar homes. No thank you. I put all the blame on the doctor.

I think the doctor should be investigated....

I'm amazed at the stupidity and irresponsibility of the doctor. When a friend of mine had invitro, they implanted only 3 eggs. The most she could have had (unless the eggs divided) would have been triplets. Luckily for her, she had a single baby. But implanting 6 (I think that was the number and then 2 divided) into a woman who already had 6 kids that she wasn't able to afford to raise is incredibly irresponsible. But then again, should the doctor have to do background checks and research? I don't know the answer here, I'm just rambling.

I don't think there should be an invitro backlash, but I do think that there's been concern for several years about putting too many eggs "in". This is what happened to Jon & Kate Plus Eight, as well as many of the other multiple births that have made the news. It causes a lot of problems for the poor underweight premature babies, as well as high risk for the mothers. Not a good idea.

Where is Solomon? We could all use his wisdom in a case such as this!

My main issue is with the doctor/s who allowed this treatment to go ahead. It might be a wild suggestion, but how about doing some background checks and psychological screening for a woman who shows up at your office asking for 8 embryos to be implanted. I think anyone who wants fertility treatment should be questioned about the size of their families, previous pregnancies, etc etc. Don't the doctors need that kind of background information before they can do such a big procedure? If you want to adopt a child you're subjected to the third degree, shouldn't it be the case with this as well? Actually I thought taking a background history was a part of all medical procedures...

I guess the problem is that people might start saying that doctors don't have the right to decide who deserves to have children. But I do think there's a huge difference between most sane individuals who want IVF and this case. From the limited press I've seen about this issue, the woman does seem to be a little... not right. You wanted a big family? Six kids IS a big family.

Also I'm a little confused how she could actually afford the treatment if she's living at home with her mother?

Did she say how she afforded the procedure? I think I might have missed that. And the plastic surgery. Where did all this money come from? Should've been put towards her six children she already had.

I have two beautiful children born to other women, and I wouldn't change anything - even the fact that my husband and I used reproductive technology. Even though it didn't work. The clinic we used had a policy (imagine that!) and no more than two or three embryos (depending on their rating) were transferred back after fertilization. It's not the intent of IVF to have a women deliver a litter - this is the result of a bad doctor.

I think it is WONDERFUL that you're opening this up to comments. However, I do hate to tell you that I'm going to be completely boring and...agree with you. I feel that this situation is completely sad, primarily because those 14 children will have to deal with an unrealistic amount of public scrutiny because of a seemingly unstable woman.

I also feel the doctor has a great deal of explaining to do. A doctor should continually make decisions that are in the best interest of the patient. Clearly, it was unsafe to purposely implant so many embryos.

I STRONGLY feel that any man and woman should have the right to explore all of their options when it comes to expanding their family. My husband and I had some slight issues that were (fortunately) quickly resolved with a change in medicine. However, some couples must find options that are more intense and sometimes invasive. No matter what, that is the woman or couple's choice.

People's reproductive rights should NOT be messed with. That said, fertility treatments shouldn't be given out like candy. This woman was clearly plenty fertile all on her own. Why was no screening process conducted?

I think people have the right to fertility treatments, but they also have the right to have them done ethically and properly.

I think that this woman is not only irresponsible, she is in need of mental help (cuckoo for cocoa puffs!)
She is incredibly insensitive to those who need help conceiving. Many of those women never do conceive, and while that is not "Octo Mom"s fault she is a fertile babies-mixed- in-a-lab receiving machine, it sure is a slap in the face to those who are never successful.
The doctor who is responsible for those 14 babies (I read all/almost all were conceived through fertility treatments from the same doc) is unethical and should have his license taken away. A woman with 6 kids doesn't need a greater than average amount of embryos put in her! She needs to get a job to feed the first 6!
All I can do is hope these children grow up without any lasting harm done and that they make better decisions then their mother.

Have you seen the photos of Suleman's parents' home? Before they added 8 more babies? wtf, indeed.

While I don't agree with the situation this woman has put herself in, what's done is done. Am I angry that as a California tax payer, my tax dollars will be helping raise her children? Yes. That being said...

My husband and I thought we were going to have to undergo fertility treatments to conceive. One of the first things I asked the doctor was, "How many embryos do you transfer?" His response (word for word), "Don't worry, you won't end up on Oprah. We won't transfer more than two."

Long story short, he said that they had it down to "such a science" [pardon the pun] that it was unnecessary to transfer more than that. Now, I know there are extenuating circumstances where more may be transferred (which is what Nadya claims was the case with her specific fertility issues), but perhaps we should be taking a look at her doctor so something like this does not happen again.

It is absolutely unfortunate, to put it mildly, that this woman's situation is casting a bad light on couples/women who need IVF or other fertility treatments to fulfill their dreams of having children.

A placenta smoothie... THIS is the reason I look forward to reading your thoughts, Heather. Anyone can blog about current events. Few can do it with such relevant wit that makes me choke/laugh outloud in the office.

I'm currently trying for my first kid, and while we haven't been doing it long enough to know if there are any fertility issues, I now have a totally new perspective on having kids. Or more specifically, the ability to have children. If I can't get pregnant... how awful would I feel if someone told me I'm not allowed to try other means?

I so think physicians have the responsibility to evaluate patients and exercise caution when it comes to allowing people to take on the burden of multiples. Maybe they could create something like a FAFSA form for in vitro! Based on your income, the government will tell you how many babies you're eligible for. They'll ignore extenuating circumstances and make sweeping decisions based on how you rank up with the masses. That'd be totally effective, no?

As I posted on Momversation, I think she was selfish. This is not about quantity, but responsibility. If you can afford 14 children, that's one thing, but she, clearly, cannot. And those poor kids didn't do a thing to deserve the hardship they're undoubtedly in for.

But more to your point on THIS post, I agree that she should not be used as an argument against reproductive options. Her case is particularly odd ('crazy' is a better word, imho) and thus an outlier.

I know women who have struggled with infertility, and my heart breaks for them (and soars when they succeed). On the other hand, my boyfriend and his siblings are all adopted, and I can't tell you what a wonderful thing that is, to know that he was given a chance he wouldn't have otherwise had. Without that opportunity, we probably wouldn't have crossed paths and be in each other's lives and hearts right now...

Like you said, there are a lot of larger issues here. I don't think there's any one prescription for what's right or wrong; each woman and each family is going to need something different. And that's fine. That's what makes life so interesting!

(But "needing" 14 children you can't afford is something different altogether.)

Anyway, for a more humorous take on Octomom, check out gotnobabies.blogspot.com (which is not my site, so I'm not doing a shameless plug here!).

And to all those women struggling to make their own decisions out there, don't let the haters get to you!

As someone who paid about 90,000 in Federal taxes last year, I am pissed that my money is going to support this spoiled, delusional woman.

I am a doctor; this so called doctor should have his license revoked. He only did it to have his "success" rate increased. That is a sin and he should be held accountable for irresponsible medicine.

I have thoughts about this on many levels. First, my husband I struggled for 4-5 years with infertility. We spent thousands to no avail. The small portion that his insurance covered still left us deep in debt. Then he lost his job and we had to give up totally. Then as the years went on I got to the point of being too old. It left me bitter for MANY years!

Then this woman comes along and totally ABUSES the entire system! She is an outrage. There is no reason on earth that she needed to have all of those kids. Six was bad enough and then she had the nerve to have 8 more.

There is no way that she does not have some mental dysfunction. Just listening to her and watching her mannerisms you can tell. She is a attention hog. She thrives in the limelight. It is all very, very sad for those kids.

Her parents have spent so much of their own retirement taking care of all of them in a three bedroom home. Not how they should be spending this part of their lives either.

I have finally gotten over the trauma that my invitro experience left me with, but this woman is an abomination to all. She needs some extreme counseling. She is going to milk this for all it's worth!

I think the whole situation is just profoundly sad, and I see it ending in something tragic, unless these children are put in more stable homes. I don't see how her state's children and family services is not already investigating this situation.

Very brave of you to open up comments on this!

I am all for government assistance and welfare when it is a means to get people back on their feet. People have situations in life they can't control, or make mistakes, and end up in places where they need help.

But welfare is not a lifelong solution to problems. People need to be educated about personal responsibility and not putting themselves in situations they can't handle. And Nadya Suleman has done just that.

I have no problem with people who want to have a bazillion kids and can afford it (the Duggar Family comes to mind, but many other countless families included). But when people put themselves in situations where they need long-term government assistance, I think it is just wrong, and taking advantage of the laws and programs in place.

Now who is to say that Ms. Suleman knew what she was up to. She seems a little loopy to me, and she may not have fully understood the ramifications of her actions. There are so many people to point fingers at here, but I think the best thing we can do is help out this woman's 14 children who had no say in the life in which they were born. We can also learn from this so we can educate women in responsible reproductive choices.

I agree with everything you said, and how you said it. The woman may or may not have been irresponsible. The doctor was definitely irresponsible. But the KIDS had no choice in the matter, and they are the ones we need to focus on.

Probably not much new to say that has not already been touched upon here but...I think that it was completely selfish and irresponsible of Octomom + 6.
Did she think she was going to be able to take care of them? No. Did she think that WE should/would give up our free time, money and energy to take care of her kids? Yes.
I think she and her doctor should be held responsible. I feel bad because it is like the IRAQ WAR. We had no business going there, but now have a responsibility not to leave without fixing what we started.

If it is physically impossible for one woman to take care of 14 children, why does the family on that show "18 and counting" not get any grief? Because she is married? Because TV networks support them? I don't agree with this Octo-mom's mentality but I am curious if it's the amount of kids, they way in which she had them or her personal life (or lack there of) that is most responsible for the outpour of anger from the public/media.

Whatever her motivations for having this many children are, the sad fact of the matter is that her actions have brought the onus of intense scrutinization on her. Unless she can maintain these children in appropriate living conditions, I don't see how she will be able to avoid having the government take some of her children away. I see everyone losing in this scenario - the mom and the kids.

An outpouring of non-judgmental love and support is what is best for these children & Nadya. My tax dollars have helped a lot worse things (hello people look at the bank bail-out). This world needs to stop focusing on what the 'ideal' situation is. I will be praying and hoping she gets donations. If she was married and had a job she'd already have a lifetime supply of diapers & formula, etc. Face it, an employed person would have to quit working anyway. And 14 kids would drive almost anyone in the direction of divorce. So maybe she started out ahead of the game ;) But seriously - regardless of what you or I would do, these children are here. Life is a miracle - and a body to bring them here is too!

Here's a great article that gave me some perspective on the issue.

http://www.slate.com/id/2211151/

I'm a lesbian, and both of my children were conceived through artificial insemination, as are many, many of the children of my friends. A few of my friends' kids here and there were also conceived through IVF. I'm going to call this woman with the octuplets the Crazy Lady for simplicity's sake and because I think she's crazy. (By the way, referring to the octuplets as "premature octuplets" is redundant, and I'm saying this in the nicest and funniest way possible.) So, I'm not particularly worried about the perception of reproductive technologies changing because of the Crazy Lady's... decision/madness. She is clearly crazy. There is something wrong in her head that, after having six children, she felt the need to have more children when 1) it wasn't an "oops" and 2) it couldn't even happen un-aided. Crazy. Really. No one who is sane could possibly compare her decision to conceive and carry octuplets, thereby creating a family with 14 kids, to my decision to conceive and carry one child, and my partner's decision to conceive and carry one child, and us ending up with a family of four (two parents, two kids). There simply is no comparison. Anyone who could find a comparison there and worked themselves into indignation is also crazy and probably closer in mindset to the octuplet mom than they are to me. I wouldn't waste my time worrying about them.

I agree. The idiocy of this woman and her doctor shouldn't ruin it for everyone else. I don't agree with what she did. I think her doctor's practice should be investigated. I feel for her children because SHE is a nutjob.

*weren't there, i mean.

I feel really bad for kids in big families, because they get lost in the mix so easily. My stepmother was the youngest of "only" 9 kids, and I always saw the psychological effects of this in a lot of what she did with her life. It's bad for the planet, unfair to taxpayers, yadda, yadda, yadda, but the worst part is it's unfair to those poor kids who didn't have any choice about being born into that situation. I live in CA and I'm happy to help pay for their needs, as well as all the other little ones who need our help.

I don't necessarily blame Nadya for the situation. The girl has issues, but her mother has done nothing to help and somehow she actually found a doctor willing to put 8 embryos into a woman who already had 6 kids. THAT is who is to blame here. He probably just wanted the money. Usually I give people the benefit of the doubt, I'm like, the queen of doing that. But this time I just can't. /shrug

I worry about the 14 children. They are the victims. My husband & I had infertility issues - one uncomplicated pregnancy, then 6 miscarriages in 3 yrs. We underwent all the testing, etc., then gave up. How painful this story of the octuplets must be to couples who are doing everything medically possible, then still not conceiving.
I am sure the medical profession has guidelines for IVF, and that most drs. are following those guidelines, however - there will ALWAYS be rogue doctors and rogue patients. It's just a crying shame that this rogue patient was able to carry this many babies to term, resulting in a situation with no happy ending.

I agree with a lot of the comments that have been posted that it is kind of a sad situation. The medical miracle aspect of it is amazing that all of the 8 babies have survived but she's kind of giving a bad rap for single mothers out there are supporting themselves. The media is having a field day which, also, distracts from the crummy economic situation since we like our sensation with a side of fries in this country.

I think that she isn't quite right in the head in some aspects and feel nothing but sadness for those children. I agree with you that they didn't ask to be born into the situation but seriously, I don't need to be paying for her fourteen children.

I don't necessarily agree that she should have adopted if she felt the need to have all those babies. One of my friends has a blood condition in which she was advised not to have kids. I offered to be a surrogate but now she's pregnant and a seemingly normal pregnancy.

This is a very hard and interesting topic which people have really strong opinions. Awesome of you to open it up for discussion. :)

I have so many questions about how something like this could have happened.
I've been wondering how she paid for the consultations, the IVF, the birth, the hospital stay for her and the children. If she does not have a job, did Medicaid pay for it or did she have some other insurance? Wasn't there some kind of documentation she had to fill out along the way that sent up red flags to her insurance provider that she was not going to be able to support these children in addition to the ones she already has? Don't procedures like that have to be approved? I know women with big boobs and back problems that had difficulty just getting approval for a breast reduction.
Now, there are websites set up so people can donate money to support the children she set out and purposely planned on having. Is she serious?
It's so frustrating for me (I've been trying to conceive for 2 years) to watch the irresponsibility. Yet, I'm not sure who to blame.

I couldn't agree with you more. When the story first broke I thought "Holy cow, that mom will have her hands full" but paid no further attention. Then the hate debate started and I wondered why it would be anyone's business but the parents'. Little did I know the circumstance. Now that no one can escape the background story to this drama any longer things have come to light that are just mind boggling. But what always needs to be remembered in this whole tragedy is that there are 14 innocent children involved that did not ask to be put into this dire situation. The mother obviously lacks common sense, and it is clear, when we see her in interviews or compare photographs of her former self to the most recent ones, that there is something quite "off", but her children are merely victims of a total lack of responsibility. It is truly sad and if anyone is to blame here it is the fertility doctor who should have taken charge of this situation because in the end it will be the kids who suffer the most.

Thanks for opening this up to comments Heather. I've been thinking about this woman and her children a great deal in the last couple of weeks. As a woman who will likely struggle with infertility in my future (due to past medical history) I have spent a great deal of time thinking about the options that are provided for me should I chose to have children and I agree with what everyone else has said about the irresponsibility of that particular doctor and how that should not reflect upon the medical community as a whole. I think it's amazing that there are so many options for women who, not so very long ago, would have simply given up the idea of having children.

The point that I think the media is missing though, is the well being of those 14 children. How can it be possible for one woman to raise that many children to be upstanding members of their communities, people with values, or even just people who feel loved. I hope for those children that she manages to find a way to make them feel valued for themselves as individuals.

Thank you for saying what needed to be said. You are exactly right. From the first second the news came out that she had more kids at home, I knew the interwebs would light up with drama.

I have a very close friend with 2 year old twins concieved through IVF. They are waiting a few more years before trying for a second pregnancy because the likelihood of multiples is so high. These two people planned this out meticulously, and had to have his parents help pay for the first set. He's a lawyer, making a pretty good chunk of change. How an unemployed woman paid for 5-6 rounds of IVF, I do not understand.

As the mother of 4 children, all born singly, I cannot imagine the care and feeding of 8, much less 14. One-at-a-time times four was hard enough.

As others have said, I think the doctor(s) who performed this procedure should be held accountable...maybe he (they?) should bear some of the financial burden to Suleman and the state.

Suleman's behavior absolutely should not have a bearing on the treatment of other, more sane, infertile couples.

Does this remind anyone else of the stories of people who hoard cats and dogs? I dunno, maybe it's kinda the same thing? Creepy.

Heather - I agree with you absolutely.
A) what was that nutjob doctor thinking(oh wait, she/he wasn't)
B)the media will blow this one case up into a sweeping generality to ruin a good thing for so many couples who are struggling to have their own children. which will lead to.. C)old wrinkly policitians thinking it's up to them to decide how women should treat their own bodies.

Having had a miscarriage and been faced with the very real fear of "oh my god, what if this is the start of worse fertility problems?", I cannot fathom what decent, loving, childless couples are experiencing - and wondering if their situation will be made worse by a bunch of policy-making junkies.

Unfortunately, those kids will be the ones who suffer the most - either because their mother won't/can't properly care for them, or "the system" will shun them for their mother's irresponsibility and a situation they didn't ask to be born into.

Thank you so much for writing that. There has been so much conversation about this and the need for stronger laws and such about fertility treatment and as I struggle through the very beginning stages of working with a reproductive endocrinologist all I can think is how the access to treatment for infertility and reproductive issues in general needs to be so much better and easier. Definitely not more limited, definitely not less acceptable, definitely not more expensive, definitely not something that's up for judgment and discussion by anyone and everyone.

I think the doctor was completely out of line, and (surprise, surprise), it's been suggested that his main motivation for doing this was to raise his successful implantation percentage to attract more business.

It's very uncommon for doctors to implant that many embryos - I think the cut off point is 3, and often the doctors will advise removing one of the embryos if all three take. Multiple births are very, very risky, not just to mom but to the babies as well. This was 100% an issue with the doctor behaving inappropriately and unprofessionally, in my opinion.

I think this woman has some issues, but I think 99% of people in the world have issues (including me and you) - not all of them are as readily apparent or highly publicized.

I do also think that this lady invited a lot of the media frenzy. She's set up a website to accept donations, and I'm suspicious about her agreement with the doctor and all of the reasons she decided to do this. Suspicious though I may be, I don't *know* her motivations or what exactly makes her tick, and as such, I can't judge her. I can judge the doctor for SURE, though. As the professional in that situation and knowing what the standard procedures are, it's insane that anyone would have permitted that many embryos to be implanted or "not known" that mom might have an issue with removing them. I call BS on the doctor.

I am thrilled that medicine has been able to help so many couples who had difficulty conceiving. I just do not want to hear about how God blessed you with way more babies than nature intended after a medical procedure. The goal should be healthy full term babies. As medical interventions continue to be expanded it is necessary to evaluate what can be done with ethically what should be done.

This woman is mentally ill, of that I have no doubt. The fertility specialist who knowing implanted her with so many embryos is unethical, should be held accountable and have his license revoked. People looking to adopt a child are carefully screened and checked out before placement. These same standards should be in place for fertility treatments.

That said, it time to move past this and figure out how best to take care of these children.

How could she possibly afford the procedures to get pregnant in the first place if she is on public assistance of ANY sort? This doctor needs his lisence taken away. And Nadya? Needs some serious intervention by mental health professionals. By her interviews she appears terribly delusional. Her mom and dad? I don't know why her parents supported the behavior as they are so vocal in their dissention of it now.

The whole thing is squirrely.

My SIL has been undergoing treatments for three years now without success. Breaks my heart. They can afford the thousands of dollars financially, but the stress and disappointment are horrible.

Life isn't really fair, is it?

Couple of comments here, I have undergone IVF 4 times (as well as 6 unsuccessful IUI cycles prior to that). While I understand the majority of the population has no idea what they're talking about in regards to this topic, I think you need to get some facts straight. It's obvious most of the comments so far are from non infertility challenged folks, and lucky for them. While I am currently pregnant, I was terrified when I heard this woman's story and the resulting backlash about limiting, by law, the number of embryos that can be transferred (which, by the way is the correct terminology. The term "implanted" is used only after a "transferred" embryo has "implanted" into the uterus and therefore results in a pregnancy, this is something the body does on it's own), which is the way it is in the UK. I firmly believe I would not be pregnant currently if we did not transfer the 4 embryos we did. I am 34 years old, and yes, this was a scary decision, but it was the right one. This fourth IVF cycle was our last allowed by insurance and 3 prior cycles had not worked. We are very fortunate that only one embryo implanted and not all four, but if we hadn't transferred 4, would we have a pregnancy at all? My thing with this woman, and all cases, is that it should be decided on a case by case basis. She was obviously not infertile, she had perfectly good embryos (apparent due to all 6 implanting and two dividing) and obviously did not have a history of failed IVF. I believe these are the things that should have been considered, and that responsibility comes to her doctor. Don't punish the rest of us for one mad woman and doctor's poor judgement.

Right on Heather!

I once lived "in the infertility box", having spent thousands of dollars over several years, cried rivers of tears, and suffered two painful miscarriages. My doctor never once came to me with "let's talk about your next step". It was hubby and I who finally reached the end of our physical, financial and emotional rope and went to him, only to be told that we had a 5 to 15 percent chance of becoming biological parents together. In other words, if we had not spoke up, and kept going back, the heartbreak on our parts and the monies paid to him would have kept on rolling.

We called a halt to his gravy train, and in a little over a year, became the adoptive parents to the first of our three sons, now ages 4, 2 and 1.

Heather, you have very well outlined all of my feelings on this issue. You are right: what the doctor did was unconscionable, what the mother has undertaken is the impossible (without the assistance of someone, something, somewhere, somehow); but the kids are here and there's no sending them back. Hating on the doctor or the mother is not going to help those kids one iota. All that aside, this situation, nor any other, calls for the regulation of any woman's reproductive rights. Quite frankly, I don't think (certainly hope) that no one else out there is foolish enough to copycat this case.

Heather, you hit the nail on the head with this one! And put into words what I couldn't. I have felt so conflicted about this issue! While I am appalled at what the doctor did and think that his actions were irresponsible, I hope that this doesn't cause the government to become involved in "regulating fertility." If she had been able to conceive 14 children without medicine, I think we would still be appalled. But would people be calling for limiting the number of children women can have naturally? I pray to God not!

It is a crazy situation as you said. The real focus here should be the children. These kids did not choose to be in this situation, yet they will be the ones who suffer. Any suffering she experiences is of her own doing.

The doctor certainly holds alot of the responsibility, but legally he was allowed to NOT implant her? After they all "took" I can understand it is hard to abort any.

Either way, I am really critical of her. She is a terrible burdon to society, but those poor kids......it is them I really feel for.

I completely agree -- isolated incident that needs help, not a broken system. The people who have been helped by in vitro are many and awesome ...

I have a hard time talking about Nadya Suleman without feeling defensive for her. She went to a very unsuccessful IVF doctor who routinely implanted several embryos to try to make up for his horrible live birth rates. I read that she had 6 embryos implanted for each of her singleton births, as well as the one set of twins and the 8 babies this go-round. How was she to anticipate two sets of identical twins forming and each of the embryos implanting this time? She couldn't have. I will not judge her for that, nor will I judge her for deciding not to selectively reduce the embryos once they implanted.

I do feel like my reproductive rights are already infringed upon when I have to pay out of pocket to get pregnant because I experienced infertility. I just wish more people could have compassion and realize how damn lucky they are for not having to make the choices that many of us do.

It makes me sick when people suggest Nadya's children should be taken away because she has "too many". What happened to tolerance?

Child #1 - Future manic depressive
Child #2 - Will commit Suicide
Child #3 - Future Drug dealer
Child #4 - Future Animal abuser
Child #5 - Will end up in Jail
Child #6 - Will have multiples of her own
Child #7 - Future Child Molester
Child #8 - Will die from complications from birth
Child #9 - Will die from complications from birth
Child #10 - Will live in a group home
Child #11 -Will be Murdered
Child #12 - Will be battered by spouse
Child #13 - Will be anorexic
Child #14 - will be the only one successful and graduate from college

I am in a Womens Psychology class and this was brought up, I think I was the only person on the side of reproductive freedom, which extends not only to freedom to limit the size of our families, but also freedom to have as many children as we want. Whether that be 1 or 18 (or more). Yes, I think she made some poor choices, as did her doctor, but it really isn't up to us to decide how many children someone has, we don't have to really live with her choices, she does.

Which is something that those opposed to reproductive freedom seem to forget all the time.

I second your idea that the doctor likely holds most of the blame for the octuplets.

My husband & I are just about to begin trying to get pregnant using ART (assisted reproductive technologies). In our case, we know so far that my pituitary does not produce the correct hormones in the correct amount to ovulate. Our reproductive endocrinologist gave us the low-down on our treatment (injectable hormones!) and also was very specific in terms of how we will avoid multiple births. In his practice, they scan your uterus via ultrasound prior to insemination to see how many mature follicles there are. If there are 4 or more--he cancels the cycle. If there are 1,2, or 3, we choose if we want to go ahead. (The chances of 2 or 3 eggs being fertilized and implanted are not really all that good).

So to sum up, specialists out there certainly CAN exert their influence to prevent multiple multiple births--they just have to want to do that.

Me and my husband underwent over 10 years of infertility treatments and never had a biological child. After years of heartache and 4 miscarriages, we were blessed to adopt our beautiful daughter last month. From someone who's gone through every test and procedure imaginable, I can't believe she would keep putting her body through this over and over again. There were days when I was so crazy from all the hormones and steroids, not to mention the physical discomfort of bloating, injection site pain, etc. that I could barely function.....let alone take care of multiple children already in my care. I think she has mental problems - almost like a "hoarder" of children. I think her doctor is just as much to blame as she is. My doctor would never hear of transferring 6 embryos. That's insane! But like Heather said, regardless of what we think of her, her kids are the ones who will suffer in all of this. I can't even imagine what their little lives will be like growing up in that home. We need to pray for them and hope that nothing like this ever happens again.

This is such a sad case... sad for the kids. It's disgusting to think that a parent who cannot meet her kids needs goes out and gets pregnant again. Willfully. I think the doctor and the mother should be held accountable. Obviously this woman has problems. BUT WHAT DO WE DO? I don't think it's fair for taxpayers to support her, and I don't think she should get a TV show or book/movie deal. That would almost justify what she did and send the wrong message. I don't think anyone should send her money... if you want to help the children send diapers, formula, food donations, or toys/clothes.

it's all about ethics. medical ethics. maternal ethics. women get to decide what they do with their bodies. doctors should have some governing body that decides when they have gone over the edge.

this woman would never have been able to get to this ridiculous place, without the doctor.

if there is any blame to be spread, the doctor is covered in it.

joy

I don't feel comfortable indicting the doctor because I don't know the specifics. If the mother was aware of the risks and intended to have 8 children, I'm inclined to place the blame on her. From what I've seen, she's enjoying the media frenzy.

Two things stick with me: Her web site asking for money from people (in addition to her government assistance), and the interview with her own mother.

I don't know. I'm concerned primarily with the welfare of these children--not only her new litter of 8, but also the six already at home.

I think CPS would do well to keep an eye on the family to make sure neglect doesn't become an issue. As far as this impacting the future of reproductive rights, time will tell. Plenty of responsible and hopeful parents undergo IVF and other fertility treatments.

I do not at all see this as a fertility issue. This woman did not have trouble with fertility. She is just plain crazy.

I think these children should be taken away from her for just this reason. How can a woman with her mental health issues possibly raise 14 children? No, these children did not ask to be born, but at the same time, now that they exist, they need some stable homes where they can be raised with some sort of normality.

She is the worst sort of cheat...not only is she trying to cheat the system, but she is cheating these 14 little souls who deserve better.

I have been thinking about this story a lot lately. My husband and I have one little boy who is 3 1/2. We've been trying for number two for about a year and a half with no success. I knew there was something "wrong" and was just recently diagnosed with PCOS (polycystic ovarian syndrome).

It's frustrating to me on many levels that this woman, who has no job or financial means of paying for these treatments, is able to do this. I think she was selfish in her choice to do have another group of children, especially when she knew going forward that the likelihood of multiple births was high. Most doctors are saying that the maximum implantation is six, but the norm is two...maybe three at a time. I agree with you that the doctor is the one who should be criticized along with Ms. Suleman herself. She made the selfish decision to do this, and her doctor didn't stop her. I think they were both in it for the noteriety they knew would be sure to follow such a birth.

As for me, we're not doing in vitro. I'm sure with Clomid and a myriad of other things available to PCOS patients, we'll be able to get pregnant, but if we don't, I have one beautiful little boy, so that's okay.

One of the most basic human rights is the ability to reproduce or to choose not to do so. To mess with that is opening a Pandora's Box...I don't think we need to go there. I think maybe rules should be more defined as far as how many embryos can be implanted, but I'm not a doctor, so I don't know how helpful that would be.

As someone struggling with secondary infertility, I guess my frustration is with people making blanket judgements on those truly needing infertility treatments. There are other reasons to have these treatments besides having children. Not being able to get pregnant is only a part of what can lead to very serious health problems in the future if it's not treated correctly. Because I don't ovulate regularly on my own, does that mean I don't get to have any more kids? Does that mean that I have to suffer the other health consequences of this diagnosis? I shouldn't have to fight for my healthcare because of the choice of one stupid doctor and one stupid woman.

Heather, I'm a regular reader of your blog and I thank you for bringing this up. As for me, I'm happy to have my little boy and my little family. If it stays little, that's okay. If we get to add more, that's okay too.

It's sad that such a negative light is being cast on women who want to use IVF.
This Nadya lady is an isolated case and shouldn't change how people feel about IVF. I'm all about people taking responsibility for their own actions but seriously- what the hell was that doctor thinking?
I feel bad for the her kids, they had no control over what living situation they were brought into and now they end up having to deal with the brunt of it.
By the way does anyone else think it's weird how much the "facts" about this case has changed over time?

Her fertility doctor should be slapped with the bill instead of the taxpayers.

Okay, so clearly this woman is 'lipstick on your forehead' nuts. And clearly, she's got an unhealthy infatuation with birthin' babies and Angelina Jolie. And it's evident as well, that she sought out and found a quack of a doctor who, as you mentioned, made things all that much more difficult for people already in a really difficult situation. All that being said, however, there are 14 children in the mix here and I just hope to God, Allah, Xenu, whoever, that she is given help in the form of volunteers and donations becuase good god those children need it. I'm worried about what this picture will look like in 10 years from now....UGH!

For all outward indications this woman manipulates everyone around her. I suspect there is more story where the Dr. is concerned with her not being totally truthful. I don't know enough about reproductive technologies, but my guess is she gamed that system as well. Totally agree about the kids. What's done is done and now there are 14 kids who need a decent chance in life just like all of our kids. I just hope she doesn't end up on with a series on Discovery channel. I just don't think that is the right dynamic for that family.

On the way to my embryo transfer, my husband was practicing saying "Only one, only one." When we got there and I was up in the stirrups, the doc said "Here's a picture of the two eggs I'm putting in." Neither my husband or I said anything.
We now have 2 beautiful girls and are so glad that they have each other. I know God did this and it was meant to be.
However, if the doc had said, "here are the six I'm putting in" I would have definitely questioned him!! Nadya and the doctor both knew what they were doing and they both should have known that it wasn't in the best interest of the children.

You are so right. The backlash against ART is what scares us. I wrote about it here:

http://www.uppercasewoman.com/wastedbirthcontrol/2009/02/spiderman-under...

Now, the whole plastic surgery and Angelina obsession thing, well, that doesn't help either.

Frankly, I think they should have stopped implanting at two kids especially since she is a single Mom and unemployed.

Look at what's happening right now in this country. Companies are laying off THOUSANDS of people. How the heck are we going to feed all these people? Sometimes technology just goes way too far. It's sad that the babies are being kept alive at all costs. When did medical care become free?

The earth is going to be so crowded and filled to the prim with filt and garbage if we don't stop breeding. It is sad when people who want kids can't make them. Maybe if there was less stigma on giving up children if people really didn't mean to have them. Look at how full the prisons are of people who were brought up by people who didn't want them.

I think this woman is mentally ill and the loving thing for her to do it to give those 8 babies up for adoption. Love and being a responsible human being are sometimes two different issues. This woman has no support system and it is not going to be pretty when she finally realizes what she has gotten herself into. Those poor kids.

How about the new story about the guy who has come forward who says he's the octodad?

What I find most troubling about this story are the undercurrents of racism, classism and mental health-ism (pretty sure I made that up).

I think that if she was white and wealthy there would be little to no vitriol towards her, she would be a story, yes, but she would be on Ellen getting free diapers, not threatened with sterilization.

She seems to be a troubled woman who needs mental health care. Yesterday. If she was physically disabled, the story would not be, oh my god, that woman has no legs, how selfish of her to have children. The story would be one of triumph.

Instead it has turned into 'crazy people shouldn't have kids' and wow, if that's not the slipperiest slope of them all...

My husband and I are planning to get pregnant this year. I'm 36 and I worry we have a hard road ahead. But we have already decided we won't go to huge lengths to have a baby. IVF maybe, but not long, stretched out fertility treatments. I just got married last year and I never understood why some women went to such lengths to get pregnant. Now I do.

We're anguishing enough over it, as my husband has a decent job but does not make a lot of money. I lost my job last year. We are making it, barely, and I am scared how we will afford a baby. But we also have such a short window to get pregnant, and to think that we'd have to give up that goal because of a bad time in the economy... man. I can't even wrap my mind around that.

That said... Suleman was irresponsible and selfish.

Nadya S is a whackadoo and her doc should lose his license - and have to pay for the children's upbringing.

That being said, her choice. As long as we don't have to pay for their upbringing.

I will be paying attention to the people who pay her for her story and give her money and hold my own protest. I will not buy their products, etc. That is just wrong to support this kind of behavior.

If she already had 6 kids that she can not take care of, I wonder who paid for the IVF?

This has been a hot topic over here:

http://www.alittlepregnant.com/

when i first heard about this octuplet birth, i'll admit i was happy for the mother, but also a bit wary as it is hard to care for 1 child, let alone 8 premature babies.

then the stuff starting coming out. weird doctor, more childern at home, lives with parents. interesting things for all. & of course america groped for this story & was angry she didn't give interviews & wouldn't speak so we can crucify her on public televison. what a woman to defy the demands of the american population! see her strength!

i am amazed by this woman, how she can have so many children yet, doesn't have the means to financially care for them. my husband & i had trouble conceiving. we didn't have to go as far as invitro, but any infertility is difficult. we took clomid & that also has an increased chance of multiples. we had to sit down & discuss if we could handle more than 1 baby, emotionally & financially. we decided that we probably could (who knows until they get there, right?), it is a definite risk & should not be taken lightly.

its disconcerning to me that she had the invitro, knowing that she had a MUCH higher chance of getting multiples, knowing she didn't have a job, knowing she had 6 other children at home, also knowing that if she were to have multiples that they would probably arrive early as so many of them do! what was her game plan? what was her stopping point? what was her voice of reason?

again, she is amazing! i cannot understand what IS going through her head & what she was thinking at the time. she is blessed her children are doing well & they will probably be released soon. what if they would have had to have more? more surgeries, more tubes, more doctors...those cost money too. tax payer money...

Years ago, my doctor told me I had PCOS and could not conceive children naturally. I grieved and felt that loss tremendously, though I read many stories about women who, after many tries, were able to conceive by other means. Almost a year ago, I was told by another doctor that I DIDN'T have PCOS and that my ovaries were perfectly normal. I cannot explain the relief I felt and still feel at the news. I can't imagine being told I couldn't have children TWICE instead of ONCE simply because some people abuse their rights.

After viewing Momversation, I have to expand on the "personal choice" comment. Yes, becoming a parent (or not) is an individual choice and I agree wholeheartedly that these choices should remain individual and not involve the government.

However, when you are making the choice to bring a child into the world, it's not just about you anymore. It is not just your life that you're affecting. These babies were not involved in her personal choice, yet all of the consequences of her personal choice are theirs to endure. And I do hope that they lead lovely, balanced lives. But the odds are not good when you are one of 13 other siblings in a family with one parent, no income, and not a lot of community support. Let's hope that people can curb their disdain, though, and realize that at the end of the day it's about supporting these kids. Because they didn't make this decision that is being so vigorously debated.

long time reader, first time commenter here...

I agree we should be wary of the slippery slope and must afford and protect reproductive freedom. To that end, I also agree government regulation is NOT the answer. This decision should remain between a woman, her family, and doctor. In this case, it's clear the doctor violated the standard of practice -- ethically and I think with negligence as it was a danger to mother and babies.

And yes, the media sensationalism and backlash is disturbing, but not surprising. It's true the woman may be a walking freak show (with her media spots instead of NICU visits, etc.). BUT let's admit there is ALREADY a huge societal stigma on infertility and treatment. The media attention and discourse only furthers the negative views and judgments about women and families that are forced to resort to high-tech ways of family building.

I mostly agree with you. But, I'm sorry, I do think her children should be taken from her. Not because of the cost to the taxpayers, but because she is obviously unstable and quite ill-equipped. This is a Child Protective Services issue. I feel so sorry for those kids, and for all those struggling with infertility that have been subjected to the insane amount of media exposure that this nutjob is getting. I truly hope that these kids get taken care of somehow, that this doctor is held responsible in some way, and that this crazy woman fades into the background as soon as possible.

As someone who is having multiples (um... not planned, COMPLETELY natural, and only two), I can tell you how daunting the task is (and I haven't even had them yet!) And I only have one other child, whom I get to stay home with, and my husband makes an excellent living. My entire family is around to help me. I'm only having twins. So if I'm feeling this scared and uncertain, and she's NOT, then either she is super brave or super stupid. I'm guessing it's the latter.

And finally, I'm so glad I don't live in CA now. I don't think it's fair that this woman OR her doctor can get away with this. Isn't that state far enough in the red already?? Those children need to be taken care of, but not at the expense of others who had NO SAY when this woman decided to implant and then keep all those babies. I'm not saying that they shouldn't receive the help, because they should. They didn't ask to be born to this psycho. I'm just saying that she should be held responsible, somehow. Fraud?? I dunno. BUT SOMEHOW.

Hopefully I don't get reamed for all that, but oh well.

I have heard and read about this woman, but the thing is, I can't bring myself to get into the details of it. In fact, your entry gave me about double the information that I had.

Last year about this time my husband and I suffered our third miscarriage - the loss of an extremely hard-fought pregnancy. We finally...FINALLY...got pregnant again, and by God if the little bugger didn't up and die on us at week 12.

So into the deep abyss of depression I go, complete with a perhaps-too-close relationship with my prescription bottle of Xanax and pillow.

Long story short - I'm better now. But I can't bring myself to read about what happened in depth, because I know I'll be really angry.

I agree with everything you said - wait and see; isolated instance; folks with real fertility issues will be unfairly criticized. I am not a judgmental person, and will never know the path that brings another to make a decision. However, I can't bring myself to get into this controversy because I want babies so very, very badly that sometimes that makes the jealous Jen in me come out to play, and I'll want to go Raising Arizona on her and just go and get one of the (many) babies.

(Notice to any officials reading this - I totally won't steal one of her babies. My own sweet H-I wouldn't ever be on board with that business.)

@#15, actually Jon and Kate used fertility drugs but didn't have IVF. The accounts that I read showed that during their treatment, their very ethical physician used injectible stimulants and monitoried follicles with ultrasound. They predicted 3 mature eggs. Triplets, AT MOST, if all eggs fertilized and implanted. Everyone was shocked to see 6 (or was it 7?) heartbeats on that 6 week ultrasound. Even Jon and Kate were distressed and had NEVER intended such a birth. She wanted 1 more after previous twins, a modest 3 children, total.

IVF is different because the number of embryos is known. It SHOULD be better controlled. IVF is supposed to prevent the high order multiples in which IUI and other treatments have resulted.

(It doesn't mean we all have to love Jon & Kate, but it is different.)

I work for a Divorce attorney and he once told me something very thought-provoking. We have laws about when people can legally smoke, drink, drive, marry... and a whole list of other things that you MUST be a certain age (or have permission) to do. However, you can have a child at any age, and you can have as many as you want. A 14 year old (occassionally younger even) can have a baby and keep it without anyone flinching an eye of whether or not a 14 year old is capable of caring for said child. It is hard to regulate the issue of child birth, and I don't think there is any outcome that would work for everyone.

I do feel very sad for all children involved in this mess. And I think the Dr should absolutely have his license revoked.

Every single day responsible people all over the world make hard decisions regarding how many children they are going to have. Only a very irresponsible, immature person would knowingly bring 8 more children into a home where there are 6 others who are barely getting their basic needs met. She is a sick woman, do we really need to sit by and let her eff up these innocent babies?

Live and let live. Nobody has all of the facts on this woman. So we shouldn't judge. But, as Rebecca Woolf says, we do anyway.

Apropos of nothing, please don't use that particular loop of music for the momversations anymore. It made me want to go out and break a few windows.

My mom had issues with fertility and was able to conceive due to the help of fertility doctors. So, I'm glad she had that option or else I wouldn't be sitting in this office 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, wishing I had never been born.
;)

It's really refreshing to hear people be AGAINST regulating IVF as a result of this woman's case. I've been surrounded by people willing to regulate away in ways they wouldn't even consider if it were abortion on the table.

RE: Jon & Kate They did not have in vitro, they used artificial insemination and meds to stimulate ovulation. Kate readily admits that they are considered a "fertility nightmare" and that they made a conscious decision not to reduce for personal reasons. They had thought they'd up with another set of twins at the most.

I also concur with those who have asked - How is she paying for all of this? The previous pregnancies and this one? I was blessedly able to conceive easily, but my understanding is that the treatments are very expensive. How does a grad student living at home afford one treatment, much less 7?

I think the doctor should have his license revoked. He put this woman, and those babies, at terrible risk. I don't care if she requested it. Ethically and medically, he knew it was dangerous.

As far as the mother, I don't understand her choices. I just hope that the kids all receive the love, food, clothing, etc. that they need.

I shudder to think what the medical bills will be when all is said and done. My youngest spent 3 months in the NICU, and has had numerous procedures. We jokingly call him the million dollar baby, but that's probably about right.

ouch. comment 105 hurts my heart.

Fertility rights aside, how on earth did this woman get plastic surgery if she's on Welfare? This, to me, is the most angering point. Those kids are in for quite a life...

I was never under the impression that this was a negative for IVF. My opinion is that this is an isolated case of a crazy woman who can't make an educated decision for herself. She took complete advantage of a technology that is incredibly helpful for a lot of people, and tainted it by going to the extreme.

People SHOULD be mad at this woman. She knew she had no job. She knew she had no source of income. She knew she had 6 kids at home, 3 of whom have developmental issues, who would need her care and support and attention. And yet, she selfishly ignored her kids because she wanted more.

I am in full support of having as many kids as you want - in whatever way works for you - IF you can pay for them and support them and give them a healthy environment to grow up in. That woman cannot, and THAT is my problem.

Her selfishness is now translating into 14 kids at home who cannot possibly get the individual love and care they deserve, paid for by the government. Not cool.

Would she have qualified to adopt 1 child let alone 14? I don't think so, not legally anyway.

The doctor(s) are as much to blame as she is. They saw easy money in their pockets when she walked in the door.

This is rare, but I'm going to agree with 'Anonymous' this round. Comments 6, 110, and 116 in particular. Both this woman and her doctor are prime examples of why people pass judgment on IVF and other fertility procedures. Those against it were just given EXIBIT A -- crazy people abusing it, thus costing the tax payers and most likely, and most importantly, seriously screwing with 14 children's lives. My opinion is that of yours, Heather, both when it comes to abortion and conceiving children, however its done, that its up to the woman to decide and be in control of "the family she desires." But I also think there should be stipulations, and one of them most certainly is: cannot be a baby-crazed lunatic consulting with an irresponsible doctor. My heart goes out to her children.

I think this particular woman probably chose poorly. She's apparently well intentioned, but my hunch is this will not work out so well in the end. We don't know yet and until we do, it's improper for us collectively to act. She and her parents might turn out to do a perfectly acceptable job of raising all these kids and in that case we'll have nothing bad to say and we'll have fourteen more productive members of society.

As to the tax thing, I'm childfree and plan never to have any kids, but part of being a member of society is you support ALL of society because you benefit from the collective membership. By paying taxes now to help out families on welfare I'm investing in their future (just a little bit) and hedging (just a little bit too) against having to pay MORE later when they wound up in jail instead because they didn't get fed or educated and so didn't thrive in their early life.

Furthermore, one instance is never a reason to change the rules. If suddenly hundreds of women were having families of a dozen kids while they had no financial support, then it's probably time to change the rules - but we are not there yet and I'd be very surprised if we ever get there.

Everyone has the right to make their own choices when it comes to fertility, and they also have the responsibility to accept the consequences of their actions.

Hate the OctoMom as much as you want, this particular snafu is all on the good doctor. Physicians have a responsibility to do more than just do as they're told, and I'd love to know wtf this guy was thinking when he agreed to this procedure. What's sad is how these children will suffer for the stupidity of others, as children usually do. And the State of California will pay for it. 'Cause you KNOW that's a way better investment than say, paying our teachers. *sigh* All I can do is be grateful that this is, in fact, an isolated instance. For now.

Did you get your lips plumped?

For me, it's not about this one case bringing up feelings of disapproval towards women who are trying to conceive in vitro. I have disapproved of this for a long time. There are way too many people in the world, it's that simple. We MUST slow down our reproduction rate. I plan on having one kid, and adopt a second if I can convince my partner to do so. If it turns out one or both of us are infertile, tough. I will either have no kids, or adopt. To me, infertility might just be nature's way, through evolution, of telling us that we are too many. Even if we don't obey nature's laws, it will still prevail as infertility can be inherited. So where will trying too hard bring us in the end? A future population that can no longer reproduced "normally" is not excluded. Before anyone decides to argue, please consider that I am a scientist and there are studies to support my above arguments.

I agree with what you said in the video that we have a right to make reproductive decisions, period, so this is not a legal matter. I also think though that serious working-out of the ethics around fertility treatments have (of course) lagged behind their implementation. I really do believe in the capacity of boards of fertility doctors to be able to handle coming up with ethics rules and being able to self-monitor their profession. Getting the law in between women and their doctors is, as we know, a completely horrible idea.

That said, the law does have an interest in protecting children brought into this world, one way or another. And quite frankly, if those children are not being taken care of, social services needs to step in. I would think a case like this would already require social services monitoring. Of course, when was the last time we adequately funded children and family services? Oh yeah, never. Why pay for people to make sure children are safe and healthy when there are wars to fight and banks to rescue? [She steps down from her soap box]. It's like this situation my sister recently got involved in--she's a foster mother to a baby who was not allowed to leave the hospital with her mother after she was born. The mother was addicted to drugs, a prostitute, and violent. Ain't nobody's going to stop that woman from having kids, but once that kid is out into the world, the nurses and the law are not going to let her take that child home and put her in danger.

And one more "that said" that I think is missing from these discussions. Frankly, I think there is an inherent risk of neglect in any family that has an unusually large number of children (yes, Duggars, I'm talking to you). I was a sensitive child in a family of a dozen, and though legally I was beautifully treated, I was absolutely deprived of attention and love in ways I'm still grappling with. Whether or not those children survive, the Duggars or those from the Octomom, a parent has to do so much more than keep you alive. The emotional pain of rarely ever being hugged, kissed, or randomly reminded that you are uniquely deserving of love is vicious--we as humans are programmed to arrive in the world needing those things, too.

As someone who has faced infertility, I think NO ONE is in a position to tell me or anyone else how to conceive a child. I do, however, feel that what the doctor and Ms. Suleman did was insane. The point that myself and my family take issue with is that she ALREADY HAD SIX. In her Ann Curry interview, she stated that she felt the world was against her because she was a single mother--NO. The world is seemingly stupified by you because you already had children and are now adding to them with no means of support. It's not the fact that you are a single mother, I feel that the world would have come together and supported her had she been single, employed, childless, and went in and suddenly found out she was having eight. IF she had been a person longing to have a child and had the treatments done WITH A PLAN in place to support them--you know, right minded and all, someone with NO OTHER CHILDREN, people would have had more sympathy. No one faults a person for trying to have children--the goal of infertility treatments is ONE HEALTHY CHILD, and when multiples happen, people want to help. This is just sad. She truly needs counselling, and it's ironic she's getting a Master's Degree in that very subject. She had kids to fill a void in her lonely life, she did not have children out of a longing to parent. It's just troubling.

I don't have any children and I'm not infertile, but I think that woman has been very irresponsible. Irresponsible and selfish, because she was only thinking about what she wanted, not about the children. Even if she wants her kids to be healthy and all that, how is she going to keep 14 kids healthy if she doesn't even have a job? I really don't understand what line of thought she's followed for this.
Heather, you already said it, it is difficult enough to raise one kid, let alone 14.
Love your blog, keep up the good work!

As someone who has gone through the entire IVF procedure, I am appalled at the doctor's judgment. My husband and I were set on not transferring more than 2 embryos. When it came time, the embryologist and RE suggested putting in 3 because of the quality of the eggs and my age. We discussed the possibilty of triplets and both professionals assured us multiple births is not the goal of IVF and they believed our greatest chance for success was for all 3 to be transferred. We took their recommendation and are awaiting the arrival of our (single) son anyday now.

For the woman to even want 6 embryos transferred is ridiculous - and how could she afford it? It took us 3 years to save up the money to pay for the treatments and we both make very good salaries. I don't understand how someone that doesn't have a job could have afforded the treatment multiple times.

On a related subject, is it OK to have 17-18 children like the family in Arkansas or the couple from Jon & Kate + 8, and then exploit the details of their lives in the media to earn your living?

First of all, we all receive government welfare. Whether it is corporate bailouts, tax write offs for "business lunches," the fire department, roads, public schools, public universities, etc.

So now that we're off the "my tax dollars blah blah" high horse, the reality is that if we live in a democracy then that means that men and women get to make reproductive choices we don't agree with. Or do agree with.

Demonizing this particular woman shows the level of mother-hate in this country, which tires me the frick out.

Have to go spend some of your tax dollars driving on roads, past stop signs paid for with YOUR tax dollars with my tax-payer supported children (thanks public schools!) in my car paid for by my state job.

No RE worth his/her salt would implant that many embies into a woman. It seems these 2 oddballs found each other, and I do believe both of them had ulterior motives. Her....to have a bazillion children. Him....to experiment BIG TIME. Sad on both accounts.

Without fertility treatments and a wonderful egg donor, I would have remained childless. So obviously, I do not agree that us infertile people should "have" to adopt. And not like that route is any picnic either. People talk about adoption like you can just walk down to your neighborhood store and pick-up a baby. Please.....that's just as rigorous a process as going thru all the fertility crap.

Fertile people don't know how lucky they are.

I will at least commend Nadia for getting paid for the tv interviews. At least she recognizes that there is some financial downsides to this.

That said. Everyone please pray for those children. Nadia at least appears to want each and everyone of those children. I grew up one of 9 children. My dad didnt like kids and my mom kept on getting pregnant in order to keep him obligated. Not a good situation at all.

As the mother of twins, born through IVF, my initial response when I heard about the ocotmom was one of pity and hope that she had a good support network in place to help her. We didn't PLAN on having twins, but knew through the treatments that our probability of having a multiple birth was increased. At our clinic, before even embarking on the treatment, we had to have several counseling sessions. It's stressful, hormonal, and financially challenging and usually IVF occurs after years of disappointments and other treatments. In other words, you're so sick of having scheduled sex that you'll give the whole process over to a test tube technician just so you don't have to put out.

When I heard that the ocotomom had six other children at home, I just figured she already had some idea what she was in for, and good luck to her. Really, it was her choice to put herself in the physically dangerous position that she did. Oh, and she must be crazy.

honestly, i feel really bad for the children. that being said, i think, if she honestly asked for that many embryos to be implanted, she was looking to make the news and wanting the money. she was having finsncial issues before...the doctor should never have agreed. i pray for the children.

Though this case is extreme and surprised me when I first heard about it, the concept isn't new to me after living abroad. I see homeless mothers every day, where one child is one too many, but a number of them have two, three, four, or even five children. I also believe in reproductive rights, but after living in Brazil I've believed in them a little less, especially considering the homeless are often responsible for the high levels of crime here. Education, social welfare, and better health care all play a role and need to be improved in both countries. I just think it's unfair to any child in any country to be brought into a world where he has no chance. Hopefully, Nadya's kids might get one.

I agree that this is a very tricky situation. Do I think her doctor should have allowed her to undergo more treatments? No. Do I think she is unfit mother? Who am I to say? I don't know her, I don't know the quality of life she has been providing her children. It's really not my place to tell others whether or not they are fit to be a parent.

I am 20 years old, I am a student, and I am not a mother. However, more than anything else, I hope that someday I will be able to have children, and I deeply hope that I will be able to give birth to those children. If for some reason I am unable to, I would gladly adopt children of different ages and provide them with the same love and care and kindness as I would any children that were biologically my own. I am entirely pro-adoption, but if I was unable to give birth to children without medicine, I would seek out medical assistance for fertility. Perhaps this is selfish of me, but I think if I want to have children, I have the right to do so in the manner of my choosing.

I know many people who would make absolutely amazing parents but who are infertile, and it is devastating. I sincerely hope that this very isolated incident will not make it more difficult for people like them to get the medical assistance they are entitled to so that they might get the chance to have children.

I agree with you entirely Heather. I also think that that doctor should take some parenting classes and go babysit for Nadya.

I find it very interesting that Heather hasn't once mentioned the fame-seeking actions of Nadya Suleman. Of COURSE there's a media circus, Heather! The blame goes both ways. I will admit I emailed a few networks to beg them to not seek an interview with Nadya, in hopes that at least one party would put a cap on some of the insanity.

My take on the situation does not involve any "sweeping statements and judgments on women's reproductive rights." I'm looking at this situation as an isolated incident, with Nadya as a mentally ill individual that bears just as much responsibility as her unethical fertility.

In regards to the commenter(s) that argue that taking away Nadya's children is not a solution, I have to wonder what they're envisioning in order to ensure that these children grow up with adequate care in a safe environment. It's all about the children here, folks. There are FOURTEEN kids and some with special needs. At this stage, Nadya's wants and desires, as it concerns her children, should not be a primary decisionmaking factor.

To #15...Actually in the case of Jon & Kate, they used IUI which is basically artificial insemination. They stimulated her to product extra eggs, injected his sperm into her uterus and let fertilization happen on its own.
The problem is she had SO many eggs that her doc really should have cancelled the IUI for hyperstimulation. Kind of irresponsible on the doctor's part but I know a woman who had 11 mature eggs at an IUI (which really should have been cancelled too) and none fertilized so you never know.

What this Nayda woman did was implanting embryos. She knew how many she was likely to end up with because when they are embryos there's a much higher chance of them surviving vs. if you let fertilization take place in the uterus with eggs and sperm separated (as w/ Jon & Kate).

I think it was very irresponsible on both her and her doc's part. But at the same time if we open up legislation to say you can only implant X number of embryos, that opens the door to all sorts of legislation that I'm not comfortable with at all.
Ultimately the embryos were her property. She should have frozen some rather than risk the health of all of them by forcing the to share a maxed out womb. But should it be the woman's choice -to do what she wants with her genetic property? I think so. Think being the operative word. It's all very murky.

I feel for couples with fertility issues, I honestly do. However, my _personal_ opinion is that IVF is inherently unethical. There are plenty of children who need homes, and to me it's not only unethical to create a child in lieu of giving a needy child a home, but it's also a gross misuse of resources just to get a child that is genetically your "own." I think adoption is far more humane and loving, and much less selfish.

That said, I know my opinion is my own, and I would not want it forced on anyone else. Everyone has a different ethical code, and everyone should be free to make their own choice.

I brought my daughter home 23 days ago after a 30 day stay in the NICU. She was born at 32 weeks, 2 days weighing 3 lbs. 13 oz. The 30 days she was in the NICU were the hardest of any I've experienced and when I think of this story, all I can think of are those children in their isolettes with no one by their side. I wish them all the best and yet can't stop feeling that their mother has already abandoned them. It's too sad to even think about so instead I'll go back in and watch my little miracle sleep.

The responsibility for this ridiculous situation is the fertility doctor. He put Ms Sulemans life at risk by implanting so many embryos. If anyone should have legal repercussions in this situation, it is him. That said, I do think that Ms Suleman is irresponsible for her role in creating a situation that she could not possible manage, having so many children by IVF, even before the octoplets arrived on the scene, I certainly don't think the government should have any say in who does and doesn't have the right to become a parent.

I am 43 years old and am pregnant thru IVF with a donor egg, and my husbands sperm. I have 3 children, all grown and on their own. All of them were concieved the old fashioned way. My point is that I am grateful for the technology to create another family with my 2nd husband. Getting to this point was a long and difficult road, which only those experiencing infertility really understand. 'Complicated', is putting it lightly. Letting the government legislate any part of that decision is just adding insult to injury.

I saw this Momversation this afternoon and it actually bothered me so much that I wrote you an email. (yes, I became the crazy lady who wrote the blogger I don't know an email). Not because I feel that women should have their reproductive rights infringed upon in any way, but because you kept saying we shouldn't judge her, and I totally disagree. What Nadya Suleman and her doctor did was irresponsible and put both her and her children at risk. Why? Because she wanted all of the babies NOW. She could have frozen some of the embryos. She could have had three implanted later. It's not as if there aren't guidelines and standards to these things, and Ms. Suleman and her Doctor decided for thier own selfish reasons not to do this and to risk the life of the children.

They got amazingly lucky. But they still deserve to be judged and Dr. Michael Kamrava deserves to be stripped of his right to be part of the Society for Assisted Reproductive Technology.

If she is forced to give up those children, tax payers' money will STILL go to raising those children. They will just no longer be raised by their own mother.

This is a sticky situation, and I appreciate that you brought it up. It's easy to just say, "oh she's a crazy," but it's important to really look at two things:

1) The fact that it's an isolated incident, and
2) The possibility that she knows what she's doing.

So thanks, Heather.

This whole issue has upset me so much every time I read about it. I agree, no one should look at this and make judgements about the general public's rights to reproductive medicine. However, we have every right to judge this woman's choices, since she is obviously not well. Creating children for the mere purpose of exploiting them for money and attention is not something that anyone should condone. Those of you who seem to think that this woman is innocent don't seem to be thinking about what these children's lives are going to be like. This is one woman, who has no help, since apparently her mother is finally escaping her, expected to take care of 14 children under 8. This woman knew what she was doing, and she did it on the assumption that she would get a multi million dollar TV contract out of it. (She has stated this quite clearly.) How is that not abusive? Someone please tell me.

I don't have anything to say about the woman who had eight kids. I just love the fact that 228 people have commented on this subject. Don't you love living in America?

I think that both the woman and the doctor made extremely poor choices and those decisions will forever affect those innocent fourteen children. There is no way that she is capable of providing for these children. Very, very selfish and so sad.

Heather said: "Because all of a sudden people are now saying asinine things about how women should be forced to adopt if they can't conceive a child without medicine..."

All of a sudden? I've been in infertility and adoption circles-- secondary infertility with one adopted child. Let me tell you, people have been saying this for a LONG time.

Well, where to begin.

A) I'm a CA resident so Nadya's actions & those of all the OTHERS involved -- (i.e. the infertility clinic, the doctors/hospital that delivered those 8 babies, the "sperm donor" who is apparently the same man that provided the sperm for the other 6 children she already has, her parents who clearly have never said "No!" to Nadya in her entire life, the state of CA that gives her money, etc.) -- directly affect me as an LA County taxpayer. And damnit, that's reason enough to be pissed off!

B) I am a single mother to a lovely & very much loved 2 year old daughter that I had "whoops" out of wedlock at the age of 39. No, I didn't plan on her. Yes, she happened the old fashioned way. As much as I'd always wanted to be a mother, I'd NEVER have considered being a single mother & expecting the state of CA to pay for the stupidity of an idea that somehow I could bring a child into this world that I could little afford to care for. Let alone 14!!

C) I am adopted. Was relinquished to the state of CA at 2 days old and "languished" in the LA County Foster Care System for 6 months until I was placed w/ my adoptive family. I've met my birthmother. She is Bi-polar. I was the youngest of FOUR babies that she had, the three youngest of us she gave away for adoption.

D) I've spent the better part of the last 20+ years advocating for Open Records legislation in CA and elsewhere in the US to allow adult adoptees access to their original birth records. Not b/c we want to be reunited but b/c we'll NEVER know the truth of our origins, our medical histories, etc. otherwise. Btw, I'd like to include ALL the children of IVF & AI who were conceived w/ anonymous sperm donors in that concept of openness as well. They have just as much right to know where they come from as I do.

E) I have so many friends who have conceived (or tried to) via IVF and/or AI. Gay couples, and straight couples. While I don't agree w/ the concept of the technology, I do know how much my friends desperately wanted their children and how PREPARED they are to care for them, love them, educate them, etc. until they are fully grown.

I could go on and on about how wrong this whole thing is... and while I agree the fertility doctor should be sued for malpractice, the hospital should be sued by the state of CA for payment of of the Medi-Cal monies that went to keeping Nadya in hospital for 2 months before those babies were ever born, and so on, the ultimate responsibility lies with Nadya herself. There is NO way she'll ever be able to care for those babies. Not all 14. Not in any quality kind of way. And who will suffer the most for that? No, not the children. Though they certainly will suffer...

You and I will suffer. We will be paying for this mess for the lifetime of each and every child that woman gave birth to. And yeah, that pisses me off to no end. B/c it means my own child will likely suffer for the selfishness of Nadya Sulleman.

Thanks Dooce. Good stuff, as always.

Another thought: we don't get to infringe on the reproductive rights of the fertile. Why do we only get to tell the people who CAN'T have kids how many kids they can and cannot have? Personally, I know a family that is unemployed (and not due to the economy. They have been unemployed off and on for the last five years), they live with their parents.... and they shouldn't have had TWO kids. But because they could do so naturally, we don't get to tell them their business?

This is a slippery slope, guys. If we start by saying you can only implant two, next thing you know it's going to be a one kid policy like China.

"This is what happened to Jon & Kate Plus Eight, as well as many of the other multiple births that have made the news."

They conceived with IUI, not IVF - big difference.

We conceived twins with IUI. Infertility is incredibly painful and heartbreaking on so many levels that you can't understand until you live through it. I would never tell a woman they don't have the right to undergo treatment...unless the woman is nuts, as this woman clearly is. She's insane and had no right to bring those poor babies into her delusional, psychotic world. Now that they're here, they should ALL be taken from her and given, hopefully, to people who will care for them, can afford them, and can give them the attention they will all need but will absolutely NOT get from that woman. It is not humanly possible for a sane woman in her position (no job, house, spouse, savings, etc) to support and properly care for those kids. It's most certainly not possible for a nutjob like her to do it. Unfortunately, I agree with #105 who essentially said they're all destined for failure unless they're taken from her. It's terribly sad.

And that "doctor" and I use that term lightly, should have his testicles ripped off and shoved up his nose.

I will admit that I have openly and willingly judged this woman and her doctor for this hard to fathom, unfortunate situation. That said, I appreciate this Momversation, and the comments here, which have opened my opinion beyond the (hopefully) isolated incident, and the consequences of what judging this situation could be. I can't necessarily say where I stand on it all but my thoughts are much broader and more complex now.

Above all, like everyone else, I hope someone is looking out for the octuplets, their siblings, mother, and grandparents. They all have a rough road ahead of them, and they will need any support possible. Crazy lady or not, those kids are gonna need loved.

Heather, thanks for starting the Momversation and opening the minds of people like me, who may be quick to judge and fail to look for the larger picture in all this.

I'm more concerned with Nadya's obsession with Angelina Jolie than I am with the quantity of children she has.

But yes, I'm upset that as taxpayers, we will be footing the bill when clearly she's found money to spend on plastic surgery and the fertility treatments in the past. If this is how she prioritizes, then frankly, I would question her parenting.

I hope people who truly need and qualify (where "qualify" = can afford and are mentally stable to have children) aren't affected by Nadya's story.

P.S. Why is her website called "The Nadya Sulleman Family Website" instead of "The Sulleman Family Website?" I think this lady truly enjoys the attention - even the negative aspects.

Thank you for saying this. As someone who is struggling with infertility right now, this whole story freaks me out on so many levels.

There are just so many parts to this story: she should never have been allowed to have that many embryos implanted. She should never have chosen to give birth to them all. THERE ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE ON THIS PLANET ALREADY. But I digress....

But none of this has anythign to do with whether infertility treatments should be legal. Someone else commented saying, "she wasn't infertile, she was just single." And that is true, but I also think single women should be able to have kids, if that's their choice. Just not 14 of them. But don't ask me how we start regulating that; I don't think we can. (OR maybe the way we regulate it is by doing what we're all doing now: basically giving her a giant collective SHAME ON YOU and telling her what she did was wrong. In the hopes that other crazy-pants women out there will realize this will not turn them into Angelina Jolie overnight and their crazy-pants dreams will not come true.)

The other part of this whole thing that is even creepier, to me, is how it echoes the conservative christian movement that is literally trying to force their ideology on us all by trying to outnumber us by having as many kids as possible. I just read an interesting article on it here: http://www.babble.com/Gods-Army-For-the-Quiverfull-movement-a-huge-famil...

Yikes. Puts the 14-baby thing on a whole different plane.

Even though I do not understand this mothers decisions I fully support her right to make reproductive decisions, just like any other decision about her personal life. The doctor cannot do anything but respect her decisions. Maybe, or maybe not she tried to give her advise, we don't know, but that is all she could and should do. Doctors are in no position to make decisions about our bodies. And we women have fought hard for our right to make decision about our bodies.

How can it be a good decision to take away her children? Deprive a child of her mother? That is just mean. Especially if it is motivated by anyone not wanting her tax money support this particular woman. All she needs is some assistance, as any parent with that many children would need. For all we know.

Reproduction is after surviving the strongest biological force there is. Violating these forces of nature, such as a mothers instincts to protect, love and raise her children is the most evil invention of human kind. I am continuously shocked by how many of us think this is a perfectly valid solution.

While I do believe that people should be able to explore their options when it comes to reproduction, I think that there is a major discrepency between the requirements of adopting and fertility treatments. When applying for adoption or to be a foster parent, an approval process is required. What's the difference between the welfare of an adopted/foster child versus an as-yet-unborn fertility treatment baby? Aren't they both entitled to the same (or as close as can be expected) quality of care? Can a doctor reasonably assume to know the situation of a family without SOME background knowledge?

As a woman who has battled infertility it makes me cringe every time someone says "before anyone has fertility treatments they should have to go through counseling and fill out all kinds of paperwork so they know how many kids they have and their financial situation."

As someone who has dealt with the adoption process and was unable to adopt, it was one of the most intrusive things that I've had to deal with. Many people do it and jump through hoops to start their family due to the fact that they can't conceive naturally.

To place that burden on someone who is attempting to make their body work naturally by stimulating it to do it's job we are setting a dangerous precident. Who gets to decide what a good parent is, how many children are appropriate per family and how much a family brings in is appropriate to have "your own" children? How would those guidelines be set? And how many of us with children would not be able to "have children" if they did set these guidelines?

That said, I think Ms. Suleman failed to realize just how having 14 children will effect her life and the lives of her children. I hope she gets the help she needs to raise her family, she will surely need it.

That this can even happen is an unfortunate side effect of the broken medical insurance system in the United States. Infertile couple are paying for expensive IVF treatments out of their own pockets. The pressure for treatment to work the first time is immense for both patient and doctors as financially it could be their only chance to try IVF. This leads doctor and patients to take the risk of implanting multiple embryos in hope of succeeding the first time. With all of the financial responsibility on couples, it's very difficult to make guidelines on the number of embryos implanted enforceable or even ethical.
A possible solution for enforcible legislation would be to have reasonable state-funded coverage of IVF. Like, funding for six cycles, for up to two live births.With a maximum of two embryos transfered during each cycle.
A solution like this would give infertile couples an excellent chance at being able to have a family. And likely pay for itself by drastically reducing the incidence of multiple births.
It doesn't infringe on peoples rights, as they could pay for additional cycles after 2 children/6 cycles if they choose to.
Infertile couple benefit, insurance companies benefit(multiple premature births are vastly more expensive than single full term births) and guidelines on implantation numbers are ethically enforceable because the financial onus is taken off couples/doctors to succeed on the first try.

It is a complicated issue that I really don't know how to feel about.

All I know is that seeing her being money-grabby with interviews and tv shows and shopping at MAC when she may be losing her house - leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

I'm a 34 year old woman who has been trying unsuccessfully to get pregnant for over five years now. My husband and I are now smack dab in the middle of our first attempt at IVF due to the fact that my fallopian tubes had to be removed (they were the issue in our infertility). We've luckily had very good specialists who have been very realistic with us about everything along the way. Because my tests have shown that my ovaries and uterus are quite healthy, we are opting a single embryo transfer and freezing any other embryos for possible transfer if required. I am comfortable with this even though the chances of success are 15% lower than transferring two embryos because the chances of multiples are a staggering 35% with two embryos transferred. I do this even considering that I am paying 100% out of pocket.

The "octo-mom"'s situation can be partially blamed on her making life decisions that most of us wouldn't agree with but the majority of any blame in this matter lies with the IVF doctor she had. Unfortunately it seems that with growing infertility issues and advanced technologies, there are a segment of the medical profession that sees the dollar signs and act accordingly. This doctor transferred way too many embryos in an effort to boost his own clinical statistics. I have also read a gazillion IVF related blogs and have marvelled at how some doctors will let patients go through procedure after procedure, spending tens of thousands of dollars and not even give their patients realistic statistical information. Why would you let a couple go through six different IUI cycles if they only had a 3-4% chance of conceiving that way? Money! What it comes down to is that the medical associations need to monitor their doctors, the reason they are there in the first place and reprimand/remove doctors that are playing with ethical boundaries.

Oh and for those who say she wasn't infertile...I tend to disagree. If she were able to conceive with IUI or any other reproductive technology, why would she (or anyone) choose the highly invasive nature of IVF.

The most disappointing thing about this whole situation is the assisted reproduction backlash that we and other infertile couples have experienced due to the ignorance of the realities of infertility. Possibly the most heinous comment I have heard so far (and it has been repeated by a number of people) is that mine (and others') infertility is God's way of telling us that we aren't meant to have children and that we should just be happy to adopt. I wonder if they were to get cancer, if that is God's way of telling them that they weren't meant to live?

It really sucks that there are people out there stupid enough to have child after child, either on purpose or due to negligence, and that tax dollars go to aid those children. I am a social worker in a residential facility and I see many stupid and cruel parents in my line of work. But there are an awful lot of stupid people out there. However the children are the ones who are victimized and they deserve to have a fighting change in this world.

There are probably lots of people out there who shouldn't have children, but for each person you make that judgment on, someone else is making it on you. It does seem wrong to me that it is much more difficult to adopt a dog from a shelter than it is to give birth to an infant. Or that it seems like those who don't want to be pregnant can conceive "accidentally" so easily while many loving parents struggle with fertility issues. But it's not fair to take one individual incident and start making blanket statements about fertility issues, who should conceive and how you should be able to create your family.

I would gladly give up my career to live in a world where the social services are not needed, but it's just not going to happen. So we need to educate the uneducated, support the unfortunate and provide for the victims.

I have no problem with medical fertility- i do however have a HUGE problem with it's abuse (which this situation clearly is. I think it's safe to say that this one nut job is going to wreck it for a whole bunch of people that want a baby. Worse yet, those 14 kids...... seriously, it's ridiculous & they're the ones who will pay the price.

you have such courage to broach this subject; and yes, it is a judgmental free for all. I do sometimes wonder why we have to take a test to drive a car but anyone can be a parent, but I also do not think we have the right to dictate people's choices; in the end, these kids need time, attention and good sound care, and like you said, don't see that happening without support and tons of it; I have two children 14 months apart and I sometimes wonder what made me think I could do it; anyone with more than two children deserves a big ol celebration with their favorite food, plaques, live music and prizes.

The thing that continues to bum me out is the quickness of judgment and the assumptions people make; the media serving gaslight it further.

More will be revealed for us all. Thanks for posting the topic.

Oh, and good luck with #2--Leta is older so you will be fine---I was toast for over a year and still am at times.

If I were a parent taking advice on infertility issues, I would not want to work with a medical professional who would do such a thing. Too much of Alec Baldwin's character in "Malice" in there to suit me.

When fame is the end result of bad decisions then we'll continue to have bad decision makers. Take the light off of them and place importance and value on those making good decisions and contributing to a our society in a positive way and slowly things can change.

1. In the Momversation while you (Heather) are talking a stat pops up that all of the babies weighed around 3.5 ounces, this should read pounds.

2. Historically, women's reproductive freedoms have been impinged upon in numerous ways including doctors performing sterilization on poor women without their knowledge.

3. Medical care in this country is based on access not availability - so Suleman had money to access infertility treatments. In other Westernized nations IVF is paid for by socialized medicine and there are government imposed limits on the number of embryo transfers.

4. There is an ethical/religious component to Suleman's decision that should have been discussed prior to egg retrieval, i.e. the number of embryos created and implanted and whether she would opt for selective reduction. Obviously this was not discussed leading to a "worst case scenario."

5. According to her mother, the family was already in distress with the 6 other children they were caring for and Suleman should probably be in counseling/treatment as it seems she may have an addiction to having children.

I hope that this family gets the help they need, and I do not just mean financially. As another commenter stated earlier, if she was trying to adopt this many children, would that have been allowed? Probably not. As a human being I am saddened that this situation was allowed to occur. Science and medicine are not value-free, and the doctor and patient combination in this case produced a situation that is not healthy for anyone involved.

Lets not get so damn PC that we are avoiding the obvious:

Having 8 kids when you have no job- not to mention - *OH YEAH * another 6 at home is JUST PLAIN SH*T ALL STUPID. Now I was in The Peace Corps in a developing country where education about reproduction was scarce-people had kids for many reasons- but THiS IS AMERICA and it wasn't an accident or due to lack of education, or rape or was even a responsible number of children for any one person to have in our over populated world- IT WAS PURPOSEFUL, IGNORANT and SELFISH.
Look around- how many kids need adopting right here? How many kids are hungry? This really has nothing to do with infertility- it has to do with idiocy.

Let me preface by saying I am a pro-choice lefty.

I do judge Ms. Suleman and her doctors. There are certain bounds of acceptable behavior in society, and they have crossed those bounds. How dare Ms. Suleman attempt to have one child, let alone eight, when she was already on public assistance for the six at home? This woman is incredibly selfish and greedy (or possibly mentally ill). If the latter, I am sorry for her and her family.

The social safety net is just that - a safety net. Not Plan A. We do not live in a communist or marxist system. I say this as someone who worked in the Department of Public Welfare (I believe in the Welfare program).

Given the hostility I've witnessed against the people in the Welfare system (usually young, uneducated and minority), I can't believe all the outpouring of support here.

Yes, yes - I realize that we have just bailed out the financial services and automobile industries. I am, and always have been, in favor of regulation there. However, it's done...and I don't believe in allowing the economy to completely collapse in order to be "right." Similarly, I would not withhold aid from the Suleman family simply because their mother acted badly (or is ill). The family needs help to survive. However, I think the aid should be in-kind only. Food, diapers, medicine, medical care, rent. Under no circumstances should unrestricted cash be given to Ms. Suleman.

Regarding the doctors, I hope the state of California sues them under some type of malpractice theory to collect some of the support for the kids. If this family is on welfare, the state can have standing to sue. Here's hoping that some good fertility doctors have the balls to stand up and say that malpractice was committed. If the industry wants to avoid government regulation, it must be willing to police itself.

No one has the complete right to do whatever she or he wishes in our society. I'm sorry, but this extends to reproductive decisions where society is immediately impacted (as in this case). This isn't a situation in which someone had children and THEN fell on hard times (entirely appropriate for the social safety net). The Duggars are in a completely different situation. Post #242 said it better than I could have.

The sad fact is that these outrageous situations are exactly the ones that bad laws come from. I'm sorry that many people will be adversely affected by the selfishness of this person and her doctors.

And the newscaster says, "Story tomorrow at 4 Eastern Standard Time, Oprah."

As someone who has experienced secondary infertility, I couldn't agree with you more. The calls for reforms and limitations on people experiencing infertility sadden me, because this is an extreme situation, completely atypical of normal infertility treatments. The doctor who treated this woman should most certainly be investigated, just like any medical professional who acted in an unethical manner. General medical guidelines for a woman with a previous successful pregnancy, and is under the age of 35, like Nayda is, is to implant 2 embroys. Clearly, the doctor was not acting in her best interest, medically, nor in the best interest of any potential children, as the rate of problems associated with high-order multiples is so much greater than with single or twin pregnancies.

We don't call for reforms to limit the reproductive rights of those who do not experience fertility problems when a newborn is left in restroom at McDonalds, or found in a dumpster. Instead, we look at it as an unfortunate, isolated incident. I believe this situation should be treated no differently.

This is a strange situation!

A few thoughts come to mind from reading through the comments:

Be very careful about judging the "right" amount of children to have. This story is concerning to me b/c it seems that it would be *very* difficult to careful for that number of infants (much less premature infants) at once. If there are special needs children as well, even more difficult. I hope that the children will somehow get the care they need. Was it irresponsible to take extra efforts to add life to the world that you have no way to support? Probably. Still, no one chooses how they are brought into the world, which is why my personal opinion is that the children should receive whatever will help them become productive members of society. Whose to say that this mother cannot give that to them? No one knows...yet. You can speculate, you can worry, you can judge, you can think you KNOW for whatever reason (your personal experiences, your mom's personal experiences, etc.) - but no one really knows.

I came from a large family (of 12) and also have very good friends from large families (even larger than mine). All of us, my siblings, my friends and their siblings, never felt neglected or unloved. Don't make assumptions about large families in general, as in how much love and attention children get; each family - large, small, etc. - is different based on the people in it. Loving parents can come in couples, singles, same sex, opposite sex, multi-generational, etc. - that has no bearing on the number of children they have. I love how their is open concern for how this will paint infertile couples seeking fertility treatments, but apparently open season on large families. :) In general, it seems that a lot of people are taking a situation that is highly unusual and using it to justify generalized judgements on whatever is currently on their soapbox (all over, not necessarily on this site). I don't think this is uncommon with any unusual situation that hits the media.

Also, someone mentioned that people should go through financial, mental, etc. background before being ALLOWED to have children to prove that you're mentally stable. To me, that's a crazy, scary place to go. Who knows the perfect psychological profile of a good parent? Millions of armchair psychologists, that's who. ;-)

I listened to what you had to say Heather, and it was all good. But, does it really matter? If folks want to "judge" this woman in the privacy of their own homes, then let 'em! No one's opinion or judgement matters a gnat's whisker. Only her own opinion of herself, and ultimately, her children's opinions. Who cares about anyone else?

If I listened to what anyone else had to say, I'd have more than one child. But my husband and I said enough is enough at one daughter. And were made to feel as if we'd, I don't know, sacrificed her to Mephistopholes or something. (Sorry, I'm studying "Dr Faustus" at the moment!) So, in conclusion, so what?

I wrote a little about this issue on my blog a couple weeks ago. I have more information now, and so I realize it's hard to believe anything we are reading or hearing in the media about the details of Nadya's situation. There is so much conflicting information out there.
I will say this: as much as I think of myself as open minded and free thinking and pro-choice... I am also PRO-RESPONSIBLE ACTION. I still say shame on the Doctor and shame on Nadya, too. Too many babies to bring in to the world with very little resources to give them the best chance possible in this life. Those poor, poor children.
I still stand by what I said in my blog that we should think about implementing a sort of LICENSE process for people who want to have children. I know this seems ultra conservative and may piss people off. I'm sorry if this proposition is offensive to you. On the surface it may not seem to jive with my otherwise liberal views. But sh*t. You have to have a license to get married, right? You have to have a license to go FISHING for godsake. Why not to bear children? I mean, why NOT? Any ill-prepared whackjob can reproduce -- and they do. And do. And do. There should be some accountability, but I'm not sure who is supposed to be holding us accountable. For me, it's my own conscience, but it's not ME that I'm worried about. It's people who are OBVIOUSLY IN NO CONDITION TO BEAR CHILDREN AND HAVE NO RESOURCES TO SUPPORT THE LIFE THEY HAVE GIVEN AND NO WAY TO CULTIVATE A SUSTAINABLE AND CONTRIBUTING CITIZEN OF EARTH - that's who I'm worred about. But, hey. Who am I to judge, right? i also don't want to be responsible for other people's bad choices. I'm already paying my taxes. Plus, I have my own sh*t to deal with.
I am really asking this question about the baby making license, because I'm hoping someone will convince me there is a better way.

I have plenty of thoughts on this story... none of them good. One of the things I am dying to know is how she could afford IVF in the first place.

Wow, when I first saw that this was what you were writing/talking about, I was all, "fuck, here we go again with someone who has never been there spouting off", but you didn't, and you said it right, and it's all just very very good what you did here.

Some of us have fought for almost 4 years (me) for the ability to parent just 1 kid, and would never have been as irresponsible as this woman, and to be thrown into that category by all these people who keep using the term IMPLANT when they clearly have no idea how this shit even WORKS (because you can NOT in fact, IMPLANT, ever), well it's just a fucking pisser when sometimes I'm already being pissed on. Thanks for NOT being one more to piss on us:-)

I think this is a tricky situation... And one that no one (doctor or patient) should ever try to get into. I don't think there should be laws regarding the number of embryos to transfer (because there are always exceptions to every rule), however I think REs should be much more conservative with the number of embryos transferred during IVF. Transferring 6 embryos into a woman who is 33 (using embryos from when she was younger) and who has had multiple successful pregnancies seems unethical. The risk to the woman's health and to any babies that grow in a higher order multiple pregnancy is significant. Perhaps if insurance covered IVF more patients and doctors would be content to limit transfers to 1 or 2 embryos (as the norm... obviously some situations could require transferring more than 2).

I never really had any strong feelings or opinions about this one. I just feel bad that the media has so badly gotten into the middle of this one. What about Jon and Kate? They didn't have 8 but 6 is still a handful at once along with their two others. Seems like the majority is in love with that family. Just because they are married, it makes a difference. Sure Jon goes to work, but how do you think they would make it without the endorsements and the check from TLC?

And then again, what about the woman who has a baby by a different daddy ever couple years just so that she can stay in the system. Those ladies have been around since welfare began, haven't they? I see a drastic difference between Nadya and 'those' gals. No one's taking away their rights to have more children...

I am not against using medicine to deal with infertility. It must be so hard for families dealing with this issue, and far be it for me to judge how others choose to deal with their problems.

However, what I do wonder is why people go to such expense and inconvenience in order to NOT adopt? There are so so so many children who need homes. Do people think they may not be able to love their adopted baby as much as the one that grew in their womb?

Adoption has been going on since the beginning of time. There have always been wonderful, selfless people raising the children of those who could not raise their own. In my eyes, adoption is the FAR more natural choice than medicine.

As one who is in the in the process of going through infertility treatments, I can empathize with the struggles of those ttc. At times I think I'm going out of my mind with all the treatments and things that I am subjecting my body to these days. I would hope that there be no legislation barring me from obtaining any treatments possible to help me concieve, but at the same time, I would like to see that there are some laws that govern ethical behavior on the part of my doctor. The Hippocratic Oath does not guarantee that my doctor will "do no harm" out of ignorance or greed.

In some countries there are specific legislation that govern the max number of embryos that can be implanted with IVF treatment. Here in the US, we only have guidelines without strict enforcement, hence there is no grounds to go after the doctor in this case. Some women go into the process highly educated about the risk, responsibilites, and are sound of mind, but for those that don't or are incapable for whatever reason, there really needs to be laws that bind doctors from performing unnecessary or risky procedures on their patients in the name of the almighty dollar. 6 to 8 embryos is a ridiculuos and unsafe number of embryos to be implanted into a woman. I cannot fathom the intent of the doctor here, but I am sure that he understood the risk and complications involved. The sad thing is that even as I am typing these words there will be women out there who are desparate to concieve seeking out this very same doctor due to his "success" rates regardless of the dangers that he may put them in.

I can't even comment on this, because my eyes start to bleed! But this woman is a selfish, selfish woman who only cares about herself! Humans weren't meant to have litters! And the doctor's license should be yanked, period.