Well said. I think that's a perfectly reasonable, respectable answer to a question that might have become uncomfortable.

I can't imagine any member of your family being offended by your response, because it's obvious that you took great care in choosing your words and that you care about them very much. Dealing with religious issues, especially denouncing your family's religion, is a huge deal. Although I'm only 18, I've already been to hell and back as far as gaining respect for my beliefs, and only my immediate family knows about it! Your effort is commendable and heartfelt, and I can only hope someday that I will be so gracious.

I know you'll get trash about your gay marriage POV, but I want to thank you for saying it anyway. You have no idea how much it aches inside when someone tells you your sexuality doesn't deserve rights- that it, for all intensive purposes, doesn't really even exist. Thank you for believing what you do- I think you are very courageous to have such different views from the rest of your family and still love and respect them. It's a refreshing concept these days to think that different people can get along.

very well said!

I'm just not sure why it's neccessary that we see Bill Paxton's buttocks so often! And yet ... that doesn't stop me from watching.

I read a great book a few months ago -- "Leaving the Saints: How I Lost the Mormons and Found My Faith" by Martha Beck. Compelling stuff.

Heather:

Thank you for a thoughtful post. I was wondering aloud with friends today what you thought of Big Love. My husband and I (not Mormons) have suffered through the first three episodes saying "THREE" how the hell do you deal with all that turmoil. No thank you - I couldn't be that devout to chocolate cake and I LOVE chocolate cake. I'm impressed you did not mention Chloe Sevfugny being born to the part. Funny, you don't get a lot of lead actresses who bring their own wardrobe. Best regards from Boston!

I really enjoy Big Love and think it is a really well done entertaining show. I think it does a good job- and will continue to explore the way polygamy really can exploit women. I think the question will ultimately be did Bill's wives have more choice and respect than the women in Juniper Creek. I am fascinated by it (and post about it every week) because it is so different from my experience. Just like Sopranos.

I live in Idaho, I grew up in Idaho Falls and some of my family are LDS. I always see all the nods to Mormon theology and lifestyle, even while Bill and the wives distance themselves from it.

The first week I posted about it I felt odd, because I felt like in some ways it was mocking things people I respected held dear (Like temple marriage).

Your perspective is interesting and heartfelt. I hope your family understands.

It sounds like all of you have developed a mutually respectful space around the "hot" issues. I know that in my family (siblings & parent), there are some areas that I just avoid just to keep the peace and keep the ties. Otherwise, we would have all gone in our opposite directions a long time ago. The family connection is worth caring for if at all possible.

I think you're dead on. It's fine for consenting adults to do pretty much anything, I think, as long as they're not hurting anyone.

That said, I can't imagine sharing my partner with someone else on varying nights. And why is it the women are always getting the raw deal?

Sigh. Religion.

I live in Utah and my primary issue with Mormonism has to do with their views of women. I cannot participate in anything that will not allow me to hold any of the top "offices" simply because of the fact that I am a woman--no other reason. I just can't.

Speaking as a lesbian, who moved to Canada for love, and is now in a totally legal marriage: Equal rights rock!

We've been married over 2 years now, and society has not crumbled. Our rights are protected and respected.

Canada does a lot wrong, but they got this one right.

I have been reading your site for a long time and have never posted before. After reading this post I just had to. I share much of the same background as you do and I left the church for this same reason (among others). I just wanted to say how much I admire your decision to speak so openly, it is not an easy thing to do. My family can not understand why I left and they are so worried I won’t be a part of their eternal family in the Celestial Kingdom. I am not worried, I am married to a wonderful man and we have two beautiful boys and that is all I really need. Thank you for being so honest.

Possibly interesting article on practical distinctions between homosexual marriage and polygamy:

http://www.slate.com/id/2138482/?nav=mpp

Upshot: The standard two-person relationship isn't arbitrary; it's based on human nature.

Why? Jealousy, of course!

My husband and I are both watching BigLove. The acting is good, and the whole polygamy angle is certainly provocative.

HOWEVER, aside from the disturbing site of Bill Paxton's buttocks (way too much exposure there) in almost every episode, there is also this disturbing element of the sheer submission involved in the characters' fourway marriage. Maybe its the whole Hollywood drama thing, but these women are either:
a) squabbling over who gets to have sex with this guy on what night of the week
b) asking him for more material possessions, because the other wives' have this or that (car, furniture, etc)
c) ridiculously gushing over this man, who when they are having a bad day, offers to "bless" them

Absent from this potrayal of polygamous marriage are the children and their relationships with their parents. Both the women and the husband seem more concerned with extricating themselves from the sexual pitfalls of the marriage, than they are about spending quality time with their like 10 or so kids!

I totally agree with you that the particular dynamics of any marriage should be legal for consenting adults. But there is just something in the whole paternalistic arrangment that fundamentalist polygamy supports that really makes my teeth itch.

My sister converted to Moromonism before she married her husband. Although I gave her a few pot shots (as is my right as family) we all respected her decision. She has been married now for over five years and I have learned a few wonderful things about her religion, and a few not so wonderful things. One of my biggest complaints is that if you are not Mormon, you tend to get put on the back burner. Her church comes before her non Mormon family many times and that hurts. I didn't get to see her get married because I wasn't mormon, nor did other relatives that were because they were not at the level that allowed them into the temple. During the holidays, it's always a fight for her to get to spend time with me, that hurts too. I guess in the end, I can't condone a religion that puts it's church before the blood family. Maybe it's just my sister, but i've seen it with other people and I just can't agree with it. We grew up believing blood came first, I still believe that...I just wish my sister did.

I was one of the many who emailed you about your opinion on the show.

I too was raised in the Mormon church and left in my late teens/early 20s for the specific reasons that you stated. Namely:
1) I realized my opinions were too liberal to belong to the Mormon church, and
2) I couldn't stand the way women in the church were relegated to second class citizens.

My mother fell away from the church when she & my dad divorced (I was 14) and she was completely ostracized by our ward. Of course, Dad was never judged that way.

My dad and my sister stayed in the church and had total faith that if my testimony were true I would one day return.

I carried with me the church's party line on things like polygamy for the longest time. ("God commanded it to help replenish the Mormon population; there were many more women than men b/c the men were all being persecuted and killed; the Mormon church no longer believes in that practice.")

It wasn't until years later that I started reading some web sites that published truths behind Mormon philosophy. Like that the church leaders never gave up on the idea of polygamy and they DO belive that it will exist in the afterlife and they're just marking time while the US govt. prevents it.

It makes me sick. It appalls me that my parents fell for all that. I haven't watched the show (don't have HBO), but I can relate to how it made you feel ill. And yet I'm strangely attracted to news and information and stories about the church. I suppose it's a curse those of us recovering from Mormonism are doomed to live with.

By the way - SHS was waaay better than Stretch Armstrong dammit!

I also grew up Mormon and left it while in my 20's. While my dad, step mom and brother are still devout mormons, my mom lead the way out of the mormon church. She was the one who took all the abuse from her family. To a sister who said "it would have been easier for me had you died" to cousins who uninvited her to family celebrations. Today things are better among my mom and her family, but I will forever be grateful and proud of her courage to stand up for what she believed. My departure from the Mormon church was much more silent, and like you Heather, it's rarely talked about. Moving 2500 miles away hasn't hurt things. But someday I'll return to live in Utah with my daughter and it will again be a topic, of which we won't discuss along with money and politics!

Good for you. I was not raised Mormon myself, but one of my very best friends was, and she, for awhile anyway, attempted to leave the church. That didn't last long. During her years of questioning I read a great deal about the LDS faith and often asked her these types of hard questions. I always received the same rehearsed replies.

I know what you are doing is difficult for you, but it is important, and I think you are doing a fabulous job.

I live in Northern Utah so it is a bit more liberal here than in Happy Valley. I am not LDS, but my husband was on the High Council and his dad was a bishop three (3) times. My husband's family is lovely and they accept me fully, even though they know I will never be LDS. My husband teases me that I am more Mormon than he is; I am always baking and taking people food. I figure they know that I am so hard headed there is no use trying to convert me, they will just wait until I die and do my Temple work later. I tease my husband and tell him that when we die if he ends up on the Celestial level and I am down in the Terrarium (mistake intentional) level that he had better not plan on coming down and having sex with me, I will be partying with the rest of the bad boys. We are able to tease about some of the very things that make the religion so unacceptable to me. My husband is a stronger Agnostic than I am but we just do not talk about it with his family.

I have not watched the show. I have HBO and I need to record it to take to an LDS friend without cable. Maybe I will watch it when I record it. I don't know, I feel so conflicted about it.

There are so many contradictions in the church, like there are in every church. I am glad you have found a way to work things out with your family. I thought your thoughts on the show were very good and very well stated.

Blessings to you and yours.

Brenda

...still not sure what I think about the show. The hubs and I watch it like you would a train wreck...

I thought you handled this subject with grace and dignity to all parties involved. Bravo!
a.

This was such a nicely-put post! I admire you for standing up for your beliefs to your family, the people who love you most. That can be the hardest thing you'll ever have to do. That takes strength. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

Great post, and I see no reason why your family should be offended- in fact, I would think your mother at least would be proud of you.

My point of view is that ANY religion that tries to take away rights of other people is not OK with me.

Perhaps this is why I haven't been to any religious ceremonies in a while, yet I will worship the chocolate bunny in a few weeks. Hypocritcal? Perhaps, but there's chocolate involved at least.

Thanks for your post.

I appreciate your perspective very much.

I, too, have a Mormon family and a Mormon heritage, and I LIVE with my parents at the moment (let's just say BAD TIME - unemployment, dissolution of marriage). They really are very respectful (and I try to be, as well), but I think somewhere in the back of their minds (especially my Father) I will someday "come back to the fold." This is compounded by the fact that my name is still on Church records. I never cared one way or the other about my "name" on the records, but I finally had an LDS friend explain that it's not just my "name" - that people take "stewardship" of any official member - "inactive" or no, very seriously.

I had considered removing my name from the Church records (not to be acrimonious or bitter); I just finally came to the point where I just knew I was never going to go back. I didn't think it would shock my Parents too much: I lived with my husband for seven years before we actually married (eloped - $10 in Colorado and you can conduct your very own wedding - so we were married in bed - GOOD STUFF), I've had a long-time association with the First Unitarian Church (downtown Salt Lake) and its choir until recently (mental health leave, I like to say) - we even had a belated wedding party there, complete with sumo wrestling in the "little chapel," live music (with hidden booze for the bands that my brother was not supposed to find - alcoholic tendencies - but he did anyway and so did an old friend of mine who gets increasingly CRAZY as time passes and who hit on every man there (single or not) and a portion of the women), cotton candy, "favors" from Archie McPhee (you know - that OLD wedding tradition of Chinese food containers with rubber slugs or whatnot), the tables were covered with paper and crayons were available for all willing artistes. And I am an "Ordained Clergy Person" of the Church of Spiritual Humanism (I did that so I could officiate at one of my brother's weddings - he's the one with the nose for booze - we're the only progeny out of five who aren't avid Mormons).

So now my husband and I have been "separated" for several years (though he's "through") and everything that could go wrong with the health of my family and friends and me pretty much has.

Sorry. Garrulous disorder. No cure. The crux of the LAST paragraph is this: Now I feel hesitant to take my name off of the Church records because my Father has terminal cancer, and though I will not lie to him and pretend to become "newly faithful" or any garbage like that, I feel like it would be cruel to deny him the comfort of his personal beliefs that my inclusion on the Church records somehow protects our family in the "afterlife." I don't know.

I have seen previews for "Big Love," but my folks don't have HBO, so I've not watched it. I would probably have a hard time with it. On the one hand, I like to maintain that ACTUAL adults (not TEENAGERS or GLORIFIED CHILDREN who've been indoctrinated and brainwashed all their lives) can do whatever they want with their sexual lives or their living arrangements. However, I know that the reality of polygamy is usually very much like what I just said parenthetically. I do have polygamist ancestors; at this point I don't think I can criticize whatever they were asked to do when it was historically accepted. I WILL say that I SURE AS HELL COULD NEVER, EVER HANDLE IT. A one on one relationship is HARD ENOUGH. If it were not, I might, perhaps, be living in the house that my someday erstwhile husband is buying instead of in my parents' basement.

Embarrassing factoid: I found out this year that I have the very dubious honor of being related to that crazy son-of-a-bitch, Warren Jeffs. Technically, I think, his grandfather was my great-great uncle (perhaps another great?). Oh yes - and it was my parents' 40th Wedding Anniversary last fall (which we celebrated with much hoopla because the truth of it is they probably won't get to have their 50th), and in attempting to locate the original wedding party, we discovered that my Mother's maid of honor is now a polygamist living in the infamous Colorado City. My Mom said she'd have been much less surprised to hear that her maid of honor was now a lesbian. I certainly think that's the far superior option.

I grew up with many Mormon friends (there just happened to be quite a presence in the small town I grew up in), and as an adult was surprised by the generally incorrect ideas that are harbored about the religion by those who have not had contact.

I have had conversations with friends who grew up in DC or Louisiana explaining that no, all Mormons do not have to wear dresses, that some of the women do show their arms in public, that they don't practice polygamy, etc.

I was raised Lutheran, and am still practicing, but i found myself defending many of my Mormon friends. They were viewed as 'freaks' or something. Bothered me.

My aunt lives in SLC, is not Mormon, and has seen the negative side first hand, though. I've seen a few comments about it in these comments, but most of the women in her neighborhood will not ask her over for tea because she's indicated that she has no intention of converting. I feel badly for her.

My point, I suppose, is that I agree with you, and worry a bit about the negative impact that Big Love will have upon some very good and kind people who practice Mormonism.

I have been waiting to hear from you on this topic, Heather. Thank you for your post.

My reaction to Big Love was totally different. I found myself thinking, "Wow, I can see why these people would choose this life."

For one thing, the husband takes his conjugal duties very seriously, and makes sure (or tries to make sure) that he gives each wife equal attention. Each one of Bill's wives gets more attention from her husband than I do from mine.

They all seem like upstanding, honest people who are committed to their family and their faith. I really like them -- well, all except for Nickie and Roman.

Plus, I really like having other women as friends, and I could see how wanting to have other adult women as life companions could affect a heterosexual woman's desire to be in a polygamous arrangment. (One of the things that frustrates me as a straight, married woman is how my relationships with other women are always forced to take backseat to my marriage -- even though women can give me a lot of things that my husband cannot.)

But then, I still haven't seen last night's episode, so maybe that'll totally change my feelings.

I'm so glad you shared your views. I've been curious about your journey out of LDS.

Heather,

I became a fan and reader of your blog while struggling through the beginning stages of own exit from the Mormon faith. From some of the stories you have shared, our paths have had some similarities, and reading your experiences have served as a therapy of sorts for me through the rough patches. It feels so good to not feel so alone! And reading blogs is so much cheaper and accessible than actual professional treatment.

So, while I read your reaction to Big Love I smile. I turned in for the first episode, and I haven't been able to turn back since. It was painful. My body ached and recoiled with emotion and disgust. Entertaining for the friends who were present... but not so cool for me. Why?

Because for me it was all too real. And scary as hell. Why? Because of the deceit of the Mormon Church. While, yes, Mormons do not PRACTICE polygamy, they do regard it as a Celestial Law. Meaning? (To me) *You* have to accept it to make it to the Celestial Kingdom. All the BS that I was feed as a child about it being a woman’s “choice” to partake in it was a joke. Yea, your choice my leg – I realized that I was going to be safe from having to make that choice only as long as the Mormon Church continues under its current policy of placing American Law above God’s Law (I can easily see this changing). And once legal, or once the Millennial Reign begins, and God’s Law is once again ‘established’, choosing not to will then again be one and the same as choosing the Natural Man, and buying your exit ticket from Heaven. (See treatment of those early Saints who rejected it to see where I am going here). What scared me, and still concerns me a great deal, is how little this was understood by most of my fellow member friends and family…. There was no way in HELL polygamy was ever going to be acceptable or plausible for my life… so this was yet another reason I knew I had to make my exit.

I want to get more into the deceit, but it might be a little off-topic. Let’s just say the hypocrisy has scarred my life in more ways that one – so I have no doubt that if I was to remain a True Believer, my fears above would have been proven well founded.

And just an aside – maybe some other Recovering Mormons can relate - A very small part of me still fears that it may all be true. What if those crazy Mormons have it right and I do need to be one of many wives to be accepted of God! The horror!
Mormon Dogma is one tough bitch to flush from a brain. Am I right? Even when ridiculous, ludicrous, and absurd.

I live in Idaho Falls, am not Mormon, but watch with horrified facination, wondering what the Mormons are gonna do about such a show! I'm surrounded by Mormons and don't like the fact that I can't even exercise without hearing the other ladies talk about what seems to me, their submissive lives.

You posted beautifully.

i dont get HBO :(

I've been watching Big Love too, and there is just no way I could deal with being one of multiple wives. I think by nature, women are competitive enough...add in sharing a husband, and I see nothing but heartache.

I come from a long line of Mormons, and my great-grandfather was the last to have two wives. I was absolutely mortified to read in one of many handy dandy geneology books that he was courting wife 2 while wife 1 was pregnant with my great-grandfather. My grandfather was the only one of his family to leave the church, much to the chagrin of my great-grandfather, who was a bishop at the time. That was a rift that took a long time to heal.

Our family reunions are great. On one side you have the drinkers and heathens, and across the room there is a line of frowning Mormons. Since I love nothing more than to torture relatives that think I'm not going to be allowed in whatever heaven, I let my bleeding heart liberal views out as loudly as possible.

Big Love is so much more about gay marriage than about polygamy. How pathetic that polygamy is a more acceptable topic for exploring human relationships and bigotry than same sex relationships. Personally, I can kind of see the sister-wife thing; the competition keeps each relationship fresh. And attraction the attention of a powerful man who is more than ready to commit, it's pretty sexy.

Heather, i thought that your post was very clear and concise. You obviously have thought a lot about what this means to you and how it would effect your family by discussing it in the blog. I commend you on being so honest and still protecting the feelings of those that you love. That's something I need to work on in my own life, but you did it so well. I watch Big Love, but don't delve too deeply in to it - it's a tv show people, not a documentary. I have read other boards where people are confused that this family is Mormon and not a splinter group, and I would hope that by the third episode, it is now clear. I also didn't know about how being sealed in the temple and then divorced has more ramifications on the woman than the man.... almost like she is being "punished" for not keeping him happy... Very interesting. I'm agnostic, but like learning about every other religion, in case I might have a revelation. Again, thanks for a great post.

I think this is one of my most favourite posts of yours. It's deep and thoughtful and something I can talk about in class tomorrow. I agree with your opinion 100%, and I'm not one to agree with people about stuff -- I'm a big arguer. But anyway, I'm glad that you are so civil and at the same time, stand up for what you believe in. You're a true role model. Thank you, Heather.

I'm a Seinfeld Jew. That means that I'm a cultural, but not religous jew. I'm also reading your blog from New York (city) and I feel like I'm looking through a window into another world. We're not exactly afraid to voice our opinions out here so I'm always surprised when I note any hesitance on your part to speak your mind.

The city is gritty, it's big, and it can be confusing, But for the most part, New Yorkers tend to get along. After all, we all have to ride the subway together.

Personally - could I share my spouse or partner with someone else? Noooo. Do I understand how other women could choose that lifestyle? Not at all. However, do I care if other people want to live that way? Nope, not at all.

I too was raised in a religion whose tenants I found that I could not adhere to as an adult. I have yet to find one that feels good and natural to me, so I just work on my own concept of spirituality- however limited that may be.

I think that you have expressed your views about your former faith in a very respectful manner. Personally, I don't see how we as hairless monkeys can grow spiritually if we don't ask a lot of questions, and ultimately find our own path.

As always, you're just so right on. We have the same stupid rule in the jewish temple...until we've gotten a proper divorce under jewish law, my ex-husband and I aren't supposed to marry again (thank goodness I'm not marrying a jew this time!) If that weren't bad enough, technically, I'm not even supposed to marry someone from the same TRIBE of jews as my ex...wtf is that? My aunt went through the "jewish" divorce and the minute the papers were officially signed and accounted for, she was treated like a pariah by the very rabbi who'd been so helpful and encouraging all along.

Organized religion kinda blows.

I SO knew it was pronounced like Pita!

And thanks for the props about supporting Narda's and my right to marry.

In the Orthodox sect of our religion, a woman must get a "get," or a Rabbi-sanctioned divorce as well.

Needless to say, we are not Orthodox, although we are very observant.

Okay, I realize that this comment most likely will not even be read, but I had to make it, considering that one of my heroes has just talked openly about an issue I feel strongly about.
I agree wholeheartedly that it is biased to deny to homosexuals the same rights we give freely to heterosexuals, regardless of how flippantly or seriously they happen to regard it. However, when I bring this up, most people will reply with "Should we allow a person to marry their dog?" When I explain that a dog can't sign a consent form agreeing to get married, they ask "Should we allow mothers and sons to get married? Or fathers and daughters?"
Now, this question is a bit more tricky. The government has of course laws against incestual marriages; however, if they are both consenting adults, what difference is there from a marriage between two homosexuals, or a polygamist marriage? Most of my ethical beliefs are strongly against any sort of incestual marriage; however, if I can't follow through on my argument for marriage between consenting adults, regardless of sexual preference, I can't allow myself to make the argument.
Mrs. Armstrong, if you happen to read this comment, would you mind letting me know how you would respond to it?

Your eloquence continues to floor me, whether you're talking about constipation or a topic as thought-provoking as this. I'm not really that into blogs, but I find myself checking your site daily. Thanks for writing. I'll keep reading, not only because I enjoy your work, but also because I'm hoping your ability to express yourself so clearly will rub off on me.

very well said.
while i never was a part of the LDS church directly, my neightbors all my life (till i was 18) was a mission home. families rotated in and out of that house every 3 years and some of the families were really great. we enjoyed having them as neighbors. but regardless of what kind of neighbor they were, we could not get over they way the women and girls in the family were treated as second-class citizens for the most part. it inspired a lot of conversation between my mother and myself, and i think ultimately, the role of women in organized religon being what it always has been, and probably always WILL be, is what turned me off from religon as a whole.
but i never did get over that harsh realization that this was OK with them. i'm not sure if its because this is all these women had ever known, or if they simply took this treatment out of obligation to the church or what. i saw what the males did and how they acted and what they were allowed to get away with, and the double-standards sickened me.
i can understand not wanting to open up this can of worms with the people you love most, but i think ulitmately if you feel so strongly about something, you cnnot keep it held in. i applaud you for crossing into your "uncomfortable zone".

I was wondering how long it was going to take you before you had the urge of talking about this. I can imagine is a very touchy subject for you and your family but I appreciate that you are brave enough to show us where you stand. At least I feel like I understand much better now; better than just watching a show where the only purpose is to keep people watching while the husband has sex with his three wifes on a daily basis.

I grew up as a Bible Church Christian. My husband and I always had nagging questions we couldn't answer adequately within that church. We found Orthodox Christianity and converted to that. It has been painful as my family is clearly worried about me and my children. Even though it has been a difficult road, it has been strengthening to confront questions and do something about them. Even though I'm a stubborn, opinionated woman, I have begun to understand that I don't have to agree with or understand EVERYTHING that happens or is said in the church to appreciate the beauty that can be found there. At the same time, I understand that there are some things that a person might not be able to live with and it's important to figure out what you are willing to ignore. While I empathize with the collective sigh I hear on this comment board about the mess that "Organized Religion" is, I hope that everyone doesn't give up on it. Our church leaders always say that the church is a hospital for us sinners. So, it makes sense to me that there are some problems within a hospital that is run by sinners for sinners, but my family is so nourished spiritually by it, anyway, with all of its human failings. I think it is only by God's grace that churches survive at all.

Anyway, I am so bummed that I didn't get to see you while you were in Austin, but it looks like you had a good time anyway. Loved your Shoshon entry. Leta sounds so cute! After reading your praise to your househusband, I told my daughter that I hope she marries someone like her dad or like Jon! Thanks for blessing my days with your writing.

Brava to you, dear Heather, for your candor and honesty. Although I was raised in a moderate Protestant household, I also came to reject organized religion of any kind because of the various hypocrisies that almost always seemed to arise. For example, when I was 18 my first serious boyfriend was a born-again Christian, as was his mother. He was a sweet, loving, non-judgmental boy who in my opinion was a perfect example of Christianity at its best. His mother, on the other hand, seemed to find it hard to practice as she preached, and called me every filthy name in the book, despite the fact that she never took the time to get to know me as a person, simply because I was 18 and he was 16 and she suspected we were having sex (we were). More "sins" are committed in the name of "religious faith", including the taking of human life, and yet people hide behind their religion to justify their behavior or point of view as the "right" one.

But I think you can love God and be loved by God without having to be in a religion. I don't think we need anyone to tell us what kind of relationship we should or shouldn't have with God. And in the deepest part of my soul, I know that God is not this being who is sitting there in judgment of all of us or planning to send us to hell (which I also don't believe in) or any of the bad, scary things many of us were taught to believe in as part of "religion". God is love. And that is enough for me.

My mother, on the other hand, has a very hard time with me saying "I don't consider myself a Christian" and never wanting to go to church... yet she only goes to church herself about once or twice a month. Where's the logic in that? We tip-toe around the differences in our beliefs so that we can peacefully co-exist but if I ever really let loose and told her the full extent of my opinions, chances are she'd have a hard time speaking to me again after that.

So, I fully appreciate the delicate balance between expressing your opinions publicly because you feel the need to speak your truth... and not wanting to go out of your way to hurt your loved ones. I'm walking that tightrope myself more and more with my own blog, which thankfully my family members only read on rare occasions and so far they have never gotten into the posts where I talk about sex, or their heads might explode.

Good for you, for saying what you felt you had to say. I learned long ago that my first obligation is to be authentic and express the truth as I perceive it, even if others don't agree or take issue. As long as I am not going out of my way to be hurtful, then I am not responsible for how other people choose to hear or react to what I say or what I believe. You aren't responsible for your family's reaction, if in fact they react negatively to this post or anything else you might say or do about your beliefs. If they get upset, that's their right and choice, but it's not your fault.

Well done!

I love the show!!! I took the classes to convert to Mormonism ( i was only 19 and confussed, very confussed) and the reason I walked away was because of the very thing you are talking about, I am a woman and so I am less worthy. I also walked away because I was raised that prejudice or racism is wrong. It is a little known fact that until 1979 African Americans couldn't go to the temple or go to BYU (the mormon university). This changed in 1979 and immediatly they allowed African American students into their school. They were all basketball players, non mormons. They changed the rule strictly so they could have a better sports program at their university. I was sick to my stomach and after I gave some missionaries a history lesson I ran from the building. I can't understand a religion that can practice such obvious hate.

Thank you for your thoughts. Records like this are important so multiple views of a controversial subject can be seen.

Thank you for sharing.

A good primer and very interesting read on the history of Mormonism is "Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakauer. I understand that the church told its members not to read it. It is a well-researched book. It makes me sad that the church leaders would tell members not to read it. I guess it's the same with Catholics and The Da Vinci code, although the latter is a work of fiction. I think people should read everything and make up their own minds.

I'm an ex-Mormon too, and although I have the utmost respect for the beliefs of my family members, it's not for me. I guess that's why there are so many religions in the world and I value that diversity.

However, when you grow up saying in your testimony that "I know the church is true," and then you come to realize maybe it isn't true for you, it is a very difficult decision to leave.

A couple weeks before my temple marriage last year (I was 19) my brother said, "Oh yeah, and in heaven he'll get to marry even more girls and you can all be sister-wives!"

I think my jaw dropped right there and never made its way back up again.

I am currently what they call a "ex-mormon" and have felt exactly what you have while watching big love...the overpowering urge to hurl. My stomach twists in this ugly knot watching those women see Billy go from house to house every morning.

Thank you for your post, I really admire the fact that you can still have a healthy relationship with your family even after you've left the church. It is a rare and beautiful thing to see.

It gives me hope that I might be able to have a relationship with my family again even though I don't believe in the mormon church anymore.

Gracefully and beautifully done, Heather. You may (or may not?) think you are simply putting your thoughts down on paper, but you are helping to change our world. Thank you for sharing your luminous gift; for using it to advocate for civil rights.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. My partner and I have talked about these issues pretty extensively, and I agree that on a civil rights level, there's no reason the polygamy should really be illegal. It's SOOOOO not for me, but I guess it shouldn't be illegal.

My actual problems with polygamy are twofold. First, logistically, it's a bookkeeping nightmare. How the hell do you figure out who has parental rights to who and who owns what property and who... ugh. I could give a bunch of examples, but I doubt anyone cares.

The bigger problem is what you touched on a little, which is religiously sanctioned polygamy where men have the right to multiple spouses but women don't have that same right. There's no way to prevent that if polygamy is legalized, and I don't see how legalized polygamy could lead to anything but some serious setbacks in some religious groups.

Hm. I'm done now.

Here's a totally unrelated thought: when will you have another kid? Won't you?

Excellent post! My husband and I have been watching it as well and we are un-decided on how much we like it. There is no way in hell I'd ever try and keep three wives or husbands happy. One is hard enough.

Religion in general seems very bizarre to me, so the Mormon Church is even harder for me to wrap my head around. That has a lot to do with the secular household in which I was raised. There is just something about that Mormon Mafia theme they got going that I couldn’t help but enjoy.

While they definitely don’t shine a complimenting light on the religion, I can really see the some of the characters, the oldest wife in particular, as being people that I can relate to and feel for, despite the fact that I am not a Mormon or polygamist. It seems like they all choice to be a part of that marriage, so I don't know why anyone whole feel offended by any couples decision, whether it be pertaining to homosexuality or polygamy.

The same old scenes in which the three wives are sitting around the table debating over who gets to hump Bill Paxton that night just seem incredibly unrealistic to me, a real mans fantasy in which the women are tripping over themselves to get his attention and are ready to satisfy him at every opportunity.

I still have to love HBO though for being the only network out there that seems to put anything remotely controversial or racy on TV. It will be interesting to see where the storyline goes.

Heather,
Hopefully no one in your family has been offended by your opinions. I like your response and like many others, I found myself wondering what you thought of Big Love. The extreme way the compound has been portrayed so far is a bit surreal to me and makes me wonder if that is existing in your neck of the woods.

I'm not married yet, but I can barely handle school, work, boyfriend and a cat ... 2 other wives and a husband and all the kids... I think I would go crazy! And the "Big Lie" to the neighbours. That should be interesting!

Heather,

I have been reading your site for a few months now. I'm impressed and totally jealous of your successful blogging - the kind of jealousy in which I like you and wish I had the talent to imitate you. Fortunately, I am smart enough to recognize that I am not a writer and do not try to impose it on the general public (except of course for right now - forgive me).

I was really moved by your post today. And, actually, by all of your writing regarding your decision to leave the Mormon church.

About 5 years ago, I left a small church in Pennsylvania that based itself on Calvinism. The founding of the church that is now about 10 years old, their teachings, and how I got entangled in the whole thing is a long and miserable story. I will spare you. The event was traumatic and life changing. It has led me to a continuing battle with depression. I believe now that this church is a cult because of their actions against me and other family members of people who attend this church (my mother still attends). They have monitored telephone calls, harassed me and my husband, and forced me out of college (this was when I was still a member - they literally came to my house and packed up boxes while I was not there). The leader of this group/church/cult/sect is very Roman Grant-like and the images of Juniper Creek remind me so much of their gatherings. While they don't have a commune, the Elders of the church often discussed it and planned one, discouraged anyone from moving out of the area (even if there was a church in the new locale that claimed to be Calvinistic), and a lot of the women dress in those hideous jumpers. Me? No – I am too JCrew for that kind of crap. Their actions, an analysis of their teachings, and the core underlying psychological impression of such teachings on their members have all lead me to the term "cult." Okay, so it's those items and the fact that on some level labeling it helps me to deal with its impact on my life.

I admire your ability to maintain a relationship with your Mormon family. While our situations are not exactly alike, we both know what it is like to leave a religion that people in your close family are involved with. I wish I knew how you do it. I still feel anger and pain that counseling just can't get rid of. I can't talk to my mother without remembering what she put me through. She can't talk to me without reminding me of what a "wretched sinner" I am, and how "sad" she is that I turned "pagan." Because we do this to each other, I have had to make the unfortunate decision to limit contact with her. We have not spoken for almost a year, though before that it was only a few times a year. I came to the point in which I realized that if any progress were ever to be made, we were killing those chances with mean words and too much emotion. Maybe in time we can come to some sort of understanding.

For the record, I am Catholic now, solely for the purpose of identification, though I truly believe that there is no exact fit for anyone in any religion. I am, as my mother says, "accepting of all religions, appreciative of all religions, and friendly to homosexuals and sinners, while ignoring the t-r-u-t-h of the gospel." She doesn't realize that I see that as a compliment! There are a lot of things that I disagree with the Catholic teachings on and also some things that seem to fit for me. I am skeptical of organized religion in general, but I also like having a place to get away and pray when the moment strikes. I’m probably the worst Catholic in terms of the traditional followers (a.k.a. my in-laws). But I’m happy. Sometimes, I feel compelled by Buddhist teachings, or by Catholicism, or by Protestant teachings, or by nothing at all. I have freedom and it is wonderful. Some might think that I am confused or indecisive, but the truth is quite the opposite. I am so confident that I know what works for me, and accept that something else might work for you and for everyone else.

I think my mother just slammed into a wall somewhere.

I hope that when my husband and I have children (we're desperately trying!) that I can achieve the relationship with my mother that you have with your family. While it isn't ideal, you seem to at least get along and respect each other. I know that is important to Leta. She may not be able to express it now, but, believe me, it is.

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

This is probably a better email than it is a comment. That’s what you get for opening up comments.

And now you’re probably kicking yourself. Or wanting to kick me. Or both.

You know, I'd actually never thought about what would happen if civil rights were allowed for multiple marriages...but it's incredibly interesting, and adds a whole new layer to the religion debate.

I am LDS, and happily so. Funny, though, I have many of the same opinions you do about polygamy (actually, so do the majority of my LDS friends, male and female alike)However, I think if you ask anyone from any religion if they agree with EVERYTHING that is taught, most thinking people would say no. There are enough good things about the LDS faith for me and my family that keep me here. It's like a cookie with nuts AND chocolate chips, if you don't like the nuts, just pick them out and enjoy the rest of the cookie. At least, this is how it works for me.

Heather,

I've been an avid reader and viewer of your blog for a while now, and I'm pretty convinced we live really close to each other!

I too was raised Mormon, but started recovering (I'm LOVING that term, BTW!) at around 15. I broke completely at 18, when I met my future husband. However, my family is still very much attached to it, in fact some of them are in the top leadership of the church, and it puts a very definite strain on our relationship.

I'm not a Mormon-basher, I'd like to think I'm not an Anything-Basher! But, there are surely things about the LDS religion that I just don't get. It's nice to get opinions and views from someone who seems to be from a similar place.

The thing I have been worried about with "Big Love" is that the way polygamy is currently practiced is not a good thing. It takes advantage of little girls, it seems to be a child-molestation factory of sorts, and I don't understand why anyone would want to take that lifestyle and glorify it on TV. It seems to be even worse that they aren't showing the "dirty" side of polygamy. The struggles that the little girls and outcast boys and demeaned women go through in those communities are almost cheapened by the laugh track that HBO is putting to its show about the Polygamy Lifestyle.

I can't express myself as clearly and eloquently as you, but my heart aches for those who are suffering because of this lifestyle. To have HBO create a comedy about it feels as heartless as making a sit-com about life in the ghetto.

Thanks for opening comments. I've wanted to introduce myself for a while. Have a great night, thanks for posting!

Good stuff. I find myself struggling with political parties because of these issues. I think I am a demopublican if there is such a thing.

I haven't had the priviledge(?) of watching Big Love yet, however, i live here in SLC and sometimes find myself wondering what mormon lives are really like.. I am here because my husband's civilian job reinstated him here....though now, thanks to the army he is in Iraq. My best friend is Mormon, and the reason she is my best friend is because she has NEVEr tried to push any sort of belief or religion on me. I grew up in a cult.... a very strict, 'unwordly', sexually 'free' cult and after i left, i am just about done with religion of any sort. I'm glad that someone out there understands what it's like to be free of that sort of brainwashing.

Let's say that polygamy becomes legal. Let's say a man is allowed to have as many wives as he can.

Let's say this new law is challenged because a woman wants to have multiple husbands. Let's say the Supreme Court agrees with the unconstitutional law. Let's say a new law is passed - women are allowed to have multiple husbands.

Let's say that homosexuals are (finally) allowed to marry as well. They too are allowed to have multiple and simultaneous marriages - it would be unconsitutional otherwise.

Taking all of that into consideration, where does it all end? If you're someone's fourth wife, are you allowed to procure a second husband? Can you take spouses of both genders? Is there a limit on how many people one person can be married to? Or how many children one marriage can produce? Are only men allowed to have multiple spouses? What about gay men? What about lesbians, for that matter?

Where does it all end? Or begin?

Hi Heather,

You're insightful, eloquent and brave.

Having grown up in the Roman Catholic Church (you down wit RCC? Yeah, you know me!), I can relate to much of this. My family didn't do very well with homo me; for a number of years Da couldn't make eye contact with me. Things are much better now, but it's conditional: we avoid the messy stuff. Getting on with my life has made a big difference--my life on my terms. I get the sense you're doing the same.

The RCC recently announced that the fire and brimstone version of hell didn't exist: hell was being in the afterlife without the presence of Gawd. My immediate reaction was "so we can see everyone at the BBQ except Jesus? I can totally live with that!" I mean, without leveraging suffering eternal, what's the big whoop?

For me, the big whoop is making this world better for someone besides me and mine. You're doing your part to in this regard. Thanks for that.

PS same-sex marriage is just like any marriage. Why the fook didn't anyone tell me that before I signed up?

You make some very good points here. I never thought about polygamy with respect to granting marriage rights (in any way shape or form) to everyone. It makes sense, though. I can see why it was outlawed, though, much the same way drugs are illegal, to protect those who can't protect themselves.

Still, it makes one wonder why you would be so against something by which your church is defined, and yet be so blindly for your church. This is one of the main problems I have with all organized religions: there's always some sticking point that I just don't agree with that raises a red flag. Why will I go to hell for doing X and Y but not Z? That makes no sense...

Anyway, thanks for the insightful posts. I enjoy your writing a lot!

Hi Deuce,
You have made an interesting point about polygamy having only been ruled out by law, rather than 'divine inspiration' ever having changed on the issue. I think, in truth, that it was never divine inspiration, and I think anyone with a modicum of awareness of LDS history knows how plausible it is that Joseph Smith was supect in bringing in 'the principle' to begin with; certainly his original wife -essentially- voiced exression that he was 'full of it'.
The funny thing is, I have seen a lot about polygamy in the media in last year, and I'm amazed the issue of basic 'arithmetic' seldom is addressed. What kind of divine plan espouses that men are in need of more than one wife? It only takes a few men having multiple wives to leave many men with no wives. The polygamy principle is suspect in a way that one would think even inbred indoctinated types from Colorado city would understand: If billy gets 3 wives, then Bobby and Dave do without.
The principle never made sense even before it was outlawed- and it's time for mainstream Mormons to say: "Yeah, that was Joesph Smith being inspired by something else other than God". I know mainstream (law abiding) Mormons believe everything they are taught... but all this illustrates is that if they had been born in a fanatical muslim sect, they'd be offended by cartoons; if they were born in Colorado City (or if the law had not stopped them...) their beliefs would incorporate this crazy priciple today. Yuck, indeed!

Heather from a fellow Heather you do us proud. How ironic that Big Love is advertised on your main page. I thought for a second it was a set up.

You do a classy job and discuss things that people want to know. It's not like you give their(family) address and emails out. They know by now this is your job and the paying "inquiring minds" want to know.

xoxo Thanks for making me shoot diet cherry vanilla coke out my nose on a regular basis

Thank you. I don't think people talk about their real feelings about leaving organized religion nearly enough ... too often, it ends up dismissed as a(n uninformed) phase or as being too lazy to go to church or, worst of all, an easy decision to make.

Yet another lost in the commentsphere thought...

what about all those nuns married to Jesus? hasn't religion santioned large scale poly relationships for centuries? (just playing devil's advocate...literally apparently)

I'm agnostic and a woman. Although this is a fragile family issue for you, I admire your courage to tell it like it is. I agree that women have always been considered second rate in the eyes of (most?) religions and that has given reason to maintain and build on the the gender inequality, causing serious lapses in society. If more women were in decision making positions would we not think twice on sending our sons and daughters to wars?

I agree with you that love between a man and a woman, or between a woman and a woman, or between a man and man, is love between TWO people. Why would you want to share your significant other HALF with a third or fourth party? In that case, we should free ourselves from any sort of commitment and just let loose. But, we'd be an awful lonely lot of creatures then.

Before I go on any further, I acknowlege that I am a man and have no clue what its like to be a woman. I am also an active member of the LDS faith and am in a leadership position in my local Ward.

Having said that:

1) I can't argue with the past, but if you want to know what the head honcho of the Church teaches about women in the Church these days then read this:
http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-479-26,00.html
Of course, if you prefer to hold on to your bias then go ahead, but don't say I didn't try to show you what is taught vs. what is executed.

2) If you really want to remove your names from the Church then go ahead and do it. Write your Bishop a letter and follow up (you can find out who he is by looking it up on LDS.org). My time is precious to me and I'd rather spend it with my family than having awkward converstions with you on your doorstep.

3) "Under the Banner of HEaven" is a good read, but I would suggest reading other books of like-matter in addition. IT IS NOT THE DEFINITIVE DISCOURSE OF LDS BELIEFS (kind of like saying that getting your news from Fox is the only source you need).

4) I really really wish that women did hold more offices in the Church, that way I could sleep in on Sunday morning and have my Tuesday nights free again. It's all yours for the taking as far as I'm concerned.

5) I am not a product of brain washing. I chose this life and I love it. I have found more peace and solice than by any other means (and I tried more than a few).

6) My great-great grandfather had four wives. I've read their journals (the wives) and they loved their lives. In fact, they marched on Washington in 1857 in an effort to preserve their life. Also, one of the most touching stories was how much the wives loved and respected each other to the point where one gave another a child to raise as her own as she wasn't able to concieve.

7) I don't want another wife. One is plenty (if you know what I'm sayin'...and I think you do).

8) I am not a Republican. Never have been. Never will be. My family and my wife's family are also keen on the Donkey.

9) If you are an ExMo, I am sorry. I really am. I empathise and know how hard it is to flush something like that out of your system as I almost left myself. Fourtunately for me my family didn't freak out. They were understanding and supportive and loving.

Great post! Thank you for addressing this!

Yes, it is barbaric that gays and lesbians can't legally marry the same as heterosexuals.

Being a lesbian, it brought tears to my eyes to see you place such significance on this fact and call it for what it truly is - barbaric. It's no way to treat fellow human beings.

I've been with my partner for over 12 years - would it hurt anyone to allow us to get married?

I didn't think I'd ever get around to saying anything since you started commenting back up -- I felt like there were always so many zillions of people that would come before and after -- that surely what I'd have to say would be said at some point anyway.

But this is different, and the strength with which your words strike some very deep chords in me, well -- here I am.

I'm a Pakistani Mulim woman who has lived outside of Pakistan for twenty-seven out of her twenty-nine years; eight of them in Manhattan, three of them in Italy, and eighteen of them in Dubai -- with parents who were open and tolerant and not at all (as my brother and I like to say) "fundo". Even so, there are a lot of things about my religion that I am now mature enough to say I have serious problems with, problems that I don't see a real resolution to.

Polygamy and the "four wives rule" is one of these problems. And while I have my stock dinner party discourse about why this *might* have made (cough) sense in the wartime era of early Islam (when many women -- often of the opposing pagan tribes -- were left widowed, and this was a way to make sure that families survived and that the religion spread); about how the Qur'an says in one place that a man can take another wife ONLY with the unforced (ha!) permission of his existing wife (or wives) and ONLY if he can treat each one ABSOLUTELE equally both in financial and human terms; about how it says in another place that treating them equally is tantamount to impossible (!) -- I have all this worked out in my head, and it all sounds pretty intellectual and civilized over a glass of wine with friends.

But, I also have childhood memories of watching my two best friends -- a brother and sister with a father who'd taken a second wife so soon after his first marriage that there was a point when (in the tiny town that Dubai was then) they had to go to the same high-school as their "step-sisters" -- I watched them live with a father who was only half theirs. I watched them celebrate their most important birthdays, religious festivals and school plays without their dad around, because those days would happen to fall between Sunday and Wednesday -- when he was "at the other house" as we all called it. I watched their mother struggle to explain herself at dinner parties where people called her by the wrong first name, the "other woman's" first name. I watched a family -- and I knew there was another one just like it on the other side of town -- with half a father and half a husband and a whole lot of bitterness and anger; not one of them -- not even the halved father-and-husband -- was happy about what their lives were like.

I still don't have an answer for why my religion allows and enables families to be like that.

Hi Heather,

This is going to be difficult because i'm tired and this'll be short when it shouldn't be...

A little honesty: When I first read your blog (dooce), i thought you were a crude and somewhat bitter woman. But, I kept reading. I've learned to appreciate your sense of humour and ability to express (in writing) your love for those near you. I don't think that completely cancels my initial impression though. But, the mccrappy beauty of the Internet is that for every topic there is never lacking a shade or hue of opinion... (so what's one impression). And of course, this is another one of those topics.

I don't know if it's worth mentioning, but Joseph Smith and Mormonism is not considered orthodox Christianity (and so it follows that the majority would consider important parts of Mormon belief skewed). But i think your post was more directed toward the idea of "what kind of belief/doctrine is a belief if it's so easily influenced by culture"?
What indeed? The charge is layed against the Mormon church because they try and delineate their beliefs -and when influenced, it's easily pointed to. The charge is not layed against culture as a whole because the culture doesn't claim to believe anything, even though the culture is much more wishy-washy. Case in point: Marriage. We are all pretty much agreed that legally, if Gay Marriage is acceptable, so is Polygamy (re: "consenting adults" in your post). The argument (put forward in some of these comments) that Polygamy is about inequality or whatever basically ignores that there is no rule on the numbers involved from both sexes. The reply that the majority of polygamy is polygyny (thus "subjugating to women") ignores the presupposition that this involves choices from consenting adults. If it doesn't then, yeah, welcome to slaveryville. The rationalization that polygamy is "unimaginable" or unacceptable on some moral grounds is exactly what was being said about Gay marriages 20 years ago. And arguments based on imagination only need one real argument to refute them. (ie: One person finds them "imaginable" - then where are you?). Legal Gay marriage and Legal Polygamous marriage doesn't seem to be about "equality", in my view, which is an overused/misunderstood word. rather, it's about validating a behavior.

This is a wonderfully difficult topic (which could be talked about a lot longer) in which you wrote a wonderful post, but I would not want to be in your shoes because family tensions tend to not be fun.

I guess i'm probably leaning toward the stance that, if you hold a view, it needs to be based on something other than personal feelings/opinions (which can be compared with today's use of nebulous words such as "rights" and "equality"). at least, this should be the case if you feel like you have to hold the view, otherwise why the frick should you care if the view changes, because then you'll be trying to defend the new view?

But that's just my two "longer-than-tiredness-should-allow-and-i'm-sorry-if-i-upset-anyone-with-dozy-remarked" cents.

Thanks.

Well, I have no insightful comments about polygamy or Mormonism, being a boring British Roman Catholic. Sort of. However, I would like to apologise to Leta for saying her name wrong. Or at least I think I have. Because to me if I rhyme it with pita it ends up sounding like litter. So I'm wondering if it's some sort of transatlantic pronunciation trickery? Is my Leee-ta [not so stretched out, I'm making a point] actually more correct? Or is it actually Litter?

A thought: I have noticed in the comments that many people lump "organized religion" together as though it were all the same: Mormonism, Roman Catholicism, Islam, Evangelicalism etc. However, it's not. Christianity is different than Mormonism, and it hurts to have some of my dearest beliefs misrepresented and flatly discredited. I thought that Heather's post was very sensitive and thoughtful, and I wish that the same feeling was reflected in the comments.

Heather, I just wanted to say bravo for a very classy post. My husband and I moved to the SLC area from Dallas for a better place to raise a family. We are not Mormon, and have very much the same personality and sense of humor that you have. Although we won't be converting, we do respect our neighbors and their choice of religion. We have many Mormon friends and my brother's wife is Mormon.

Unfortunately, I have seen alot of ugliness from both sides of the tracks. I have experienced the cold shoulder from being excluded from the block parties (maybe our invitation got lost) but I have also seen how much crap my Sister in law gets from my family as well.

I, fortunately, have great friends who are willing to answer my many questions about the religion as I am very interested in understanding how Utah has become what it is today.

I enjoy your site, I respect your class, and I think your beautiful daughter and smiling dog are to die for! Please keep your chin up and know we are all striving to go to the same place. We may just all take different paths to get there.

I remember getting a sort of lightbulb moment when reading an interview with some African women who were all the wives of the same man. They actually enjoyed it, because it meant help around the house, friendship, and that someone else could take over the "wifely duties" if you weren't feeling up to it yourself. IIRC, the women even had a say in who the next new wife would be (would she fit in, etc.), and the husband could not get rid of an existing wife without good reason and compensation.

The impression I get of polygamy in America is that it's all based on the man's needs and wants. His marriages seem to be his (conscious) decision alone and his existing wives do not have any say nor do they seem to have any rights if he gets tired of them. This based on documentaries etc. that I've seen about these marriages; they all seem to be living in the 1800's and the women are kept in the background, while the man does all the talking. Any comments from the women are along the lines of "one big happy family".

And now I can't help but think about battered wives and how they won't leave their batterer because "he LOVES me, I know he does".

Not knowing very much about the Mormon religion I'd be interested to know what their answers would be to the questions you've raised (not counting the burning in hell stuff)

I agree, that wouldn't sit well with me either! Funny, how men wouldn't mind marrying many women. Meanwhile, women don't feel the same way. Most women would consider this a hindrance! LOL!!!

Could it be because men just want all these women to care for them? Most men are just big babies. That's why i am teaching my 4 boys to take care of themselves, handle their finances and care for the home. I teach my 3 girls to be independent, so that they don't have to depend on a man or anyone else.

Geez, when you look at it written down...it sounds like a gargantuan time consuming task. Actually, it is just a lesson in accountability and responsibility.

I also teach my kids to not be sheep! Bravo Heather! If there were less sheep in America, we might not be in the situation we are in! Everybody should think FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT LET OTHERS THINK FOR THEM. We might not all agree with each other, but that sparks questions, curiosity and profound thinking. Shouldn't we all be doing more of that and less running in the hamster wheel or the rat race? Then we allow "out of touch" politicains to make decisions for us that are detrimental to our everyday life?

Makes you think, huh?

Wow. I read this post and comments last night and when I woke up this morning my first thought was to log on and see what else had been written.

After reading every single comment left here, I'm ready to go wake up the kids and start my day. And you know what? I feel really good. Just like a flame war leaves a bad taste in your mouth, a respectful, thoughtful discussion of intensely personal things between total strangers gives you hope for humanity.

So, thanks for sharing your life, Heather, and thanks to all the commenters who've left me with a lot to think about today.

Dooce, I just almost cried. At work. I didn't know that, about the temple divorce for women to remarry. That's just...sucky.

I'll be ok with polygamy the day it's advocates are ok with polyandry. Somehow I imagine it wouldn't go over so well with them if women had several husbands.

I just wanted to say thanks for this post. My father was raised Mormon and, thankfully, left the church before I was born, but his side of the family, including my grandmother, are still members of the church. I have a cousin who is a senior at BYU, and another who very recently left to go on his mission, after presenting all of us with a copy of the Book of Mormon over Christmas. These are the kinds of things that my family never talks about. I often think about my cousins, the females especially, and about how important the church is to them, and how they are being raised completely immersed in it, so they simply don't know any different, and I find it scary. I can only hope that they eventually see the light and get out.

I commend you for taking the time to discuss this subject. Every time a show comes on TV (yes, even Montel) about the Mormon fundamentalists (I can't remember the exact term they use right now), I have to watch. The sad thing I've noticed of late is that the young boys are now seen as competition for the older men that so many have become outcasts and left the cult as a result.

But the thing that makes me want to puke is the lack of equality in these relationships. Women's rights are non-existent. Otherwise, wouldn't women be able to take on as many husbands as they wished? It appears to be more of a one-way street where the men hold all the power, and the women are their baby-making pawns.

Although, in their defense, it would be nice to have a little extra help around the house and with the kid every once in awhile. However, I think I'd rather hire a professional in that respect. It's much easier, and my dignity stays in tact.

What about those people who are brother and sister and want to get married? I mean, they are consenting adults! And I know a man who is in love with his daughter, I mean IN love. Shouldn't they be able to get married too???

...not really.

This is what they call a slippery slope. If we don't base our decisions on the truth, then this country is going to go to Poo. I'm not talking about that relative, "true for you but not true for me" kind of truth that's so popular; that's just a comforting lie.

I'm talking about absolute truth.

I agree with the Unouroboros. People: read that post, s/he has a very good point. If there is no basis for your beliefs then you in believe nothing.

BTW, I'm a Christian...(let the verbal attacks commence!)

thank you for this post...it has been uplifting to read your comments as well.

i had no idea there were so many tolerant ex-mormons out there!

To the commenters:

I have to agree with Rebecca that it's very noticeable that so many people here lump 'organized religion' all in one. I wonder if many people dismiss an entire religion based on a couple 'should's' and 'shouldnt's' or bad experiences, without investigating the religion thoroughly? Even 'religious' people are human, therefore imperfect, and likely to screw up. For me, it's more about having something to strive for than about doing everything right and be perfect.

Rebecca said it best:
"Christianity is different than Mormonism, and it hurts to have some of my dearest beliefs misrepresented and flatly discredited"

I'd encourage those who haven't dug into the research about what it's all really about, to do so before criticizing it and lumping it all together.

I know there are those who HAVE done that. i'm not talking to you. There are MANY who have not. I think that in the same way that it's easy to be lazy about staying in a religion without knowing what it really means, it's just easy to be lazy about dismissing a religion without knowing what you're dismissing. An informed, prayerful, decision is important either way.

There was an interesting article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/16/AR200603...) in the Washington Post about the possibility of polygamy becoming more culturally accepted. Essentially the author postulates that the gay rights movement has opened the door for this by arguing that the definition of traditional marriage (2 people of different genders) has an arbitrary requirement of people of different genders. If you believe this to be true then doesn't it follow that the requirement for 2 and only 2 people is also arbitrary? (Not necessarily my opinion, just para-phrasing the article) It certainly presents something to think about although I'm not sure I'd bring it up at a dinner party.

Thanks for one of the best posts I've ever read on any site on dooce. I hope there's little or no negative fallout for you.

I'm glad you decided to talk about your feelings regarding Mormonism, including the differences between how men and women are treated within the religion. For this reason, I have a huge problem with many of the world's religions.

I sympathize with you for having grown up the way you did. I grew up with a fanatically Christian grandmother who thinks the man is always the head of the house, that gays are going to hell and that the war against Iraq is good and who refused to go to the Christening of her grandson because his parents weren't married at the time of his birth. Oh, and she speaks in tongues. Creepy!

I also know how hard it is to break out of a family religion and to feel the wrath because of those choices. I lost my grandma when I grew up and realized I didn't feel the way she does about things.

You made a hard decision but did what you felt was best for you. You are strong.

amarilis

With all due respect, there is no absolute truth. I'll accept that what you're talking about is your truth in the Christian context.

As a lesbian woman I have received some of the most hateful verbal attacks from so-called Christians who in their mind are adhering to the "absolute truth".

The God that I know created me, loves me and accepts me for exactly who I am. I am a lesbian and I am perfect as I am.

My partner and I of 12 years should absolutely be able to celebrate our commitment legally to one another in front of our friends and family and it is barbaric that we can't.

God is not barbaric. People are.

Most religions in general have always treated women as second class citizens. Catholics still don't allow women to become Priests. Muslims don't allow women to pray in the same place as men. Mormons at one point allowed their men to take as many wives. So my question is, why weren't woman ever allowed to have more than one husband? Was that not in the vision?

Wowie Zowie, this is a big one. I, frankly, didn't know that Mormonism was founded with is polygamist base. Had no clue. Perhaps the Mormon's who don't want to confront polygamy should continue a relationship with God without the pretense of classification. No reason why a person can't worship The Lord without having to catagorize themselves into a particular religion.
That said, is the show good? Is it entertaining? I've not watched it yet.

There has been a lot of talk in these comments about LDS women being repressed. I find it interesting, though, that Heather's escape from Mormonism has brought her to almost the exact place that the LDS church traditionally teaches about women ... a stay at home Mom, taking care of the the most important thing in her life... her family. Her journey away from Mormonism ironically brought her back to the most important, vital element of any society. Her family. The family is aalso the most important, vital element that drives the very heart of the LDS faith. There is absolutely nothing wrong with church leaders teaching things that preserve the family.

As mentioned before, I am LDS. I happen to have a Masters degree and I stay at home most of the time with my children. This has been a well thought out decision. Funny, though, since I am LDS I am likely viewed as opressed for this CHOICE.... like someone is COMMANDING me to be here. This is just not the way it works.

I really appretiated the comments of Patomic.

Very well written, I admire that you breached the topic when it definitely affects your family life. I have to add my thought that if they really aren't okay with it (polygamy) then they would have to examine the veracity of other precepts of Mormonism. Good luck and God bless in your search for answers and understanding in this mixed up world.

i was totally tracking with you until that last part about marriage in the temple, and it was then that i realized that i don't know as much about Mormonism as i once thought i did.

maybe your next post can be on the Doctrine & Covenants.

Ha!

Most days when I read this blog I swear that Heather and I share the same brain. We really need to meet for coffee at some point and let our two-year old girls (who both happen to be clones of their fathers) plot to take over the world. I was born and raised as a Mormon. During college and law school I put religion on the back burner and only recently decided to revisit the Mormon faith because of my daughter. I have too many issues with the faith to discuss them all here, but polygamy is certainly the top on my list. From what I've researched and read, the true practice of polygamy lends itself to the oppression and abuse of women. That special on A&E about the fundamentalists in Colorado City creeps me out every time - especially at the end where the scary, hairy "apostle" (surrounded by his harem of women) asks the current mainstream LDS prophet to explain why God changed his mind about polygamy.

And most Mormons don't know that Emma Smith did not agree with Joseph Smith at ANY point in their marriage that he could take on other wives. He "married" these women in private, many of them teenagers, and it is estimated that he had over 30 wives. Emma denied that Joseph was a polygamist until her death.

Regardless of all of this, my main issue with polygamy is that I do not see how this "commandment" can in any way benefit humanity. The Word of Wisdom? Makes sense. Baptism for the dead? Makes sense. Eternal marriage and familes? Makes sense. Polygmany just doesn't fit.

My mother's answer to polygamy? When we're perfected beings in the celestial kingdom all of these questions you have will be answered and everything will make perfect sense. So we'll all just have blind faith for now about the church's stance on polygamy, African Americans and the priesthood, the Book of Abraham, Native American DNA, etc. Good times.

love ya Heather.

Hi Heather,
thank you for making the world a nicer place.
I'm not sure if you, or your family, would be interested in this article http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/pdf_files/free_articles/kaiser_correcting.pdf
on the Christians for Equality site. It's about correcting caricatures and misunderstandings about Biblical teachings regarding women and their roles... I've just come across it but I think it's fascinating reading for anyone interested in the topic, as long as they are genuinely willing to listen to interpretations different to their own, and it wouldn't give rise to hurt feelings.
All the best to you and your little family,
Anna

Heather,

I applaud your handling of of this discussion. You have thought it out well and not taken pot-shots at your relatives.

I can't really comment on Big Love. I haven't seen it since I don't have cable or HBO. If given the choice to watch it, I wouldn't, because at different times in my past, I've experienced something similar, when my ex-husband openly encouraged me to practice my bi-sexual tendencies (I am no longer married and no longer consider myself bi).

For him it was totally an ego thing. The idea that he might get a threesome out of the deal. For me it was nothing but pure hell - having him point out the women he liked and thought I would like (they were all prettier and thinner than I was), ending up torn between two people I cared about very much (nothing worse than when your girlfriend and your hubby can't stand each other) and finally ending up with low self esteem and deciding that I didn't want to be married to this person and needing to get the hell out.

It's hard enough working on a single relationship with someone I care for. I will not, and do not understand, why someone would want to have multiple spouses.

As some others have mentioned, well said. You've touched on a couple of the issues (inequity, and inconsistency) that lie at the root of my initial rejection of organized religion, which led to my ultimate rejection of any and all dogma (including atheism). Funny that I find myself reflected in your review of a TV show.

Wow! Your words are so thoughtful, Heather. It brought up a whole slew of isues for me. I dislike organized religion for those same reasons. I used to sttend church, even after getting out of the house during my college years, but made a choice not to go along with the hypocrisy that seemed to shrink my soul. The final straw was that a dear friend , married for 17 years, left her abusive husband. Many memebers of her church (which i also attended, when home) actually called her up to tell her that it was a sin to get a divorce! I understand that she chose not to tell many people that, but even the pastor, who knew her situation, told her so. This utter diregard for her as a person was the final straw for me, though other aspects of organized religion also bothered me.

I have a concern about this show being aired, though i haven't watched it, not having HBO. I fear it will legitimize polygamy, especially considering the growing strength of the religious right. If the show doesn't show the abuses that seem to inevitably result, the results may be more open acceptance. I mean, by abuses, incest and forced marriage of young girls, as well as physical abuse of the wives themselves. Anything that marginalizes a group of people, tends to de-humanize them, making it much easier to justify abuse.

Thanks

I too live in Idaho Falls around a ton of mormons. The one thing that bothers me most about my mormon friends is that many of them don't know what their own religion is based or founded upon. When I asked a female friend why a woman couldn't have more than one husband in the temple, yet a man can have more than one temple wife. She just said, "I don't know, that is just the way it is." I couldn't follow a doctrine that is based upon, "that is just the way it is." I can't stand the self righteous mormon men in my area most of the time. One young man told my daughter that she would never be a "leader" because she wasn't LDS. That is so hard on these kids who aren't LDS in this small town. Just my two cents.

Can I just say, coming from New Hampshire and being a convert to LDS... we look at the religion completely differently. And they explain polygamy differently out here. I guess there really is a difference between the 'pure' mormons in Utah and the mormons out in the rest of the USA.

That has got to be the most thoughtful, kindest renunciation I've ever read. If we could all disagree with each other so clearly and reasonably--despite (and especially when) having strong emotional reactions to the subject--the world would be a lot less screwed up!

Very much agreed, but I didn't see something in your article that I thought to be important.

Why in the world would a man want to married to more than one woman?! That's crazy!

You weren't joking about the effort required to keep a relationship healthy. seems like having more than one wife would put a man in his grave pretty damn quickly.

You tackle an difficult topic with with grace and humor. Always amazing.

Is Chuck a polygamist?

Not an apologist, but I have read every single comment, and I do know Mormon theology, so I will answer the question about why it is Mormon doctrine that men can be sealed to more than one woman, but women cannot be sealed to more than one man:

Men and women complement each other. In order to reach the highest level of Heaven, called the Celestial Kingdom, men and women *both* have to be married, according to Mormon doctrine. Women must be married to a worthy priesthood holder. What does that mean? Through laying on of hands at various points of a young man's life, he is endowed with the power to act with the authority of God-- to perform blessings (healing, comfort), blessing the sacrament (communion), baptism, etc. Mormons can trace this authority back to Jesus Christ.

However, there are considered to be *more* worthy women than men; therefore, if women need to be married to a worthy priesthood holder, then the principles of plural marriage protect the women from not being able to achieve the highest level of The Celestial Kingdom.

That is the doctrinal explanation.

With regard to the Christians who have been hurt by the discussion here equating Mormonism with Christianity-- I understand your position. It has taken me years of studying Christianity to discover why the rest of the world doesn't recognize my Mormon baptism, and why most Christians do not consider Mormons to be Christians.

However, please understand that Mormons ardently *do* consider themselves Christians. Their theology, which they have been taught, just as you have been taught yours, is precious and true to them, and they love and believe in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Even if it is offensive to you to have Mormons be called Christian-- please understand that it is equally hurtful to Latter-Day Saints when you tell them that they are *not* Christian. It's not their fault-- especially those of us who were raised LDS and never learned anything different until we were so bruised by religion that even learning the truth doesn't make us feel any closer to God.

Dooce, your mama is likely proud. That was written with so much respect and love.

Growing up where I did, where there are probably 5 mormons in a 200 mile radius, I really didn't know much about the faith other than the Osmonds sang on TV and were called "mormons."

Thanks for all the education and kudos to you for having the self value you mentioned.

And just a thought for everyone... Almost EVERY organized religion views men and women very differently, with men taking the steering wheel and women hopping into the back seat. Right, wrong, or indifferent, this seems to be a common deminator in every denomination. :o) So mormons aren't alone there.

I wanted to respond to the posts that posed the question of how a Mormon would answer Heather's questions. But as I begin to write my response I realise I could very well be exposing myself to criticism knowing full well from past discussions of the like that when I've attempted to clarify my beliefs in this way it has often been used as material to pick apart and throw back at me. It's one thing to be courageous and make a stand for something you no longer believe in and quite another to make a stand for something that you do. Having said that, I don't pretend to like or even fully understand the practice of polygamy. But most examples I've seen thrown at us by mass media have usually been implemented for so and so's own agendas, ratings, fear mongering. And we think we're being educated! Quite frankly none of this discussion surprises me. Being married to a "non-member" I've been given flack from both sides and I can tell you that it has made me a stronger person. If only most woman knew the power of their own influence in their family and on society. Second rate citizens my foot.

I know I'm late in the comment-game...but I just wanted to thank you for putting yourself out there and giving us all a peek into your world/your experiences with Mormonism.

Very good read Heather. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

This show has got me thinking. Knowing very little of Mormons and basically nothing of ploygamy, I have found myself asking some of the same questions you have asked.

Why would a woman willingly submit to this lifestyle? It's beyond my comprehension, yet I am curious to find answers. Also, what did Bill mean when he asked Nikki if she wanted him to give her a blessing? It has me googling info every Monday trying to find answers.

Hear hear!! NO ONE could have said it better than you. Thank you for your post and your thoughts.

Many props on an eloquent post.

In response to comment #216 about the “Big Love” ad on the homepage. I don’t know much about the technical side, but it’s pretty obvious that dooce uses an ad system that picks up words on the page and posts ads accordingly. So, in this case she mentioned “Big Love” and these smart ads threw an ad up there for “Big Love”. Therefore, the ads are effected by her content and not the other way around. Had to stick up for dooce + family for making money doing something they love. We should all be as lucky!

That was a long stroll through the comments to make sure I'm not duplicating what others have said. If I do, I'm sorry. And I'm not trying to start fights, just answer some of the questions which have been posited.

I'm a Mormon man and a Wisconsin Democrat. I love this site. Heather is an incredible writer with a sharp wit, a great sense of humor, an insightful, enjoyable to read. Thank you for writing, Heather.

POLYGAMY
I don't want to marry any more women. My wife sometimes brings it up: "You know, if polygamy were legal, I really wouldn't mind you having another wife or two . . . as long as the others understood that this is my kitchen." I worry that if it ever were legalized she'd start matchmaking on me.

I think I do understand how the Church's position on polygamy changed. It has nothing to do with God changing his mind about what was okay. It's that we also have a strong belief in supporting the nation in which we live. That doesn't mean we have to accept GWB as appointed by God (whew! . . . and for your Mormon friends that do, ask them if that means Bill Clinton was too), but it means we strive to follow laws. If they're unjust we work to change them within the system as we can, but we follow them. We respect them as Law. The Church has an official Article of Faith addressing that we respect laws, but the belief also has strong biblical support and is a tradition among most Christian faiths. It is important that the practices and actions of Christians not drive the non-believers away. Christ taught that, Peter, Paul, John all taught that. Too many Christians don't "get" it.

So when this nation passed a law banning polygamy it put the Church in the position of either stopping the practice they believed was decreed by God or rebelling against the nation's laws - and they believed God wouldn't approve of that either. In terms of not being a stumblingblock to the unbelievers, it makes sense that the Church would stop the practice of polygamy . . . whether you want to believe that came by revelation from God or by temporal concerns about the property that would be lost if we didn't. As if the two were mutually exclusive, as if revelation from God can't also make temporal sense.

WOMEN
The members of the church are a subset of society. The hope is that by learning the Gospel and striving to live it, they become more morally upstanding, but they are still imperfect human beings. Women are not subservient to men in the church and ideally they would not be treated as such. The men are taught in their priesthood quorums (or should be if they are taught out of church manuals) that their priesthood does not make them superior to anyone. In fact, it makes them subservient. If men are not humble, loving, respectful in their relations, then they are not executing their priesthood offices correctly.

"We have learned by sad experience," Joseph Smith wrote, "that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion." And "when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man."

Women are included in church councils where decisions are made about how to run the affairs of the church, they head organizations within the church with their own presidencies, budgets, decision making authority, etc. If their voices are ever not heard or are discounted as less worthy then it is a problem with the men in the church surrounding them and those men will be held accountable to God for their actions. Depending on their actions, they can be held accountable to wordly priesthood authorities, even removed from their offices.

Women are by no means asked to be shut-in homemakers. They are encouraged to take active roles in society, get educated, participate in politics, in neighborhoods, in service organizations, clubs, social groups. The church does encourage specific roles for women and men, but not with any exclusionary walls between them. The man may specialize in the job outside the home and the woman at tasks in the home, but they support and assist each other in those roles. Men are encouraged to do housework and be active participants raising their children, women can get jobs and still be considered good, faithful members of the church.

CONCLUSION
I've written more than I intended. I hope I haven't offended anyone. It's just that reading Heather's entry and the several responses that expressed similar questions about "how can the church be like that", I felt compelled to answer. The church abandoned polygamy with reasonable social justification that is not incompatible with the belief that God would support abandoning it. Women are not second class in the church. That they are ever treated as such is an unfortunate consequence of man's imperfection.

Thank you Jack for writing my feelings exactly. It also saddens me when people look for answers regarding our religion in every place EXCEPT our doctrine. I have never felt anything but equal in this church. I have also not been led blindly. I know what is out there, and have made the decision to be a member of this church willingly - not because I was forced to. I have never felt more free.

Thanks Heather for your honesty. I am grateful to live in such a wonderfully free country where we can all express our opinions without fear. Whether you support our current President or not, we should all remember what a wonderful country we live in.

Thanks for your comments on the show. I was certainly curious as to your viewpoint on it.

I essentially have the same views when it comes to the fundemantalist Mormon sects which practice polygamy. The basis of it all seems to rest on a foundation on the subjugation of women and especially the sanctioned sexual abuse of adolescents. Blech - makes my skin crawl.

Hope the post doesn't play havoc with familial relations again. Good luck and a happy Shoshun to you. (I've taught the word to my dog, Fergus, and it means all things of happiness, i.e, chicken treats, walks, back scratches, etc.)

Ha! I love the show. I love most of all Bill Paxton's butt. ;)

Why would a woman willingly submit to this lifestyle? It's beyond my comprehension, yet I am curious to find answers.

There are a lot of women who take pride in being anti-feminist; they think it makes them more feminine, or something. Since there are many stereotypes and caricatures of feminists (and misunderstanding of what feminism is), particularly in "red" areas, it's pretty easy for someone to decide that they're anti-feminist (even as they believe that women should be able to vote, wear pants, etc.). I think it becomes sort of a Stockholm syndrome -- I can't be a first-class citizen, but by God I'll be the best of the second class, by denouncing those that want to get rid of the status quo (in this example, feminists and/or people who don't like women having second-class status). It's certainly not contradictory for a woman to be misogynist or to justify misogyny.

our highest calling is the ability to bear children? there’s DOCTRINE stating the reasons a woman can’t have multiple partners, and a man can? ok, that’s like a scientologist admitting he’s into aliens, and a catholic believing in talking burning bushes... at the very least, this should all call into question the utter mess that is the myth of marriage as a godgiven covenant between a man and a woman. it’s a contract involving property and reimagined constitutional and civic rights: which does not mean i support the “mainstream” gay and lesbian communities push towards “equal” rights and marriage. i think it’s a desperate assimilationist landgrab

just to clarify, i’m gay. allowing me to marry and/or debating my right to do so? thanks, but no thanks. rather, redefine all marriages -- homosexual, heterosexual, polygamist -- as civil unions. This would provide the legal protections that come with marriage, from health care to taxes to adoption, without the emotional and cultural freight. to underscore the polygamist question: the state’s authority to pronounceshould be stripped from the ministers, rabbis, imams and priests. religions want a homogenized, sexist culture, it’s the easiest way to be safe. (i’d lump all religions under this blanket statemnet). look through photos of the “gay marriages” in the past. There wasn’t a nose-pierced, pink-haired, breast-tattooed transgressive transgender queen to be seen. That’s a nightmare vision of what the future holds. Marriage as it’s now practiced, mormonism with it’s doctrinal sexism, and catholicism in general won’t change your world in any way. That’s the point, and it’s really sad.

and ps. "As for polygamy, I have also thought that if gay marriage were legal (I think it should be) so should polygamy, even though I find it extremely distasteful...."

someone PLEASE explain this line of thinking? or rather, don't. it's gross.

i cant believe you left comments open.

Heather for President!!!!!!

sorry, maybe i'll take religions seriously again when they stop being reactionary: why not go help all of the hungry or homeless people that need help, instead of protesting "special rights for queers". or taking seriously very dubious foundations of "Absolute Truth". Would you like to talk about America's disasterous track record of foreign policy, too?

bye bye.

Though I'm fascinated by Mormon history and polygamy, I have not managed to bring myself to watch Big Love. Friends who know I'm a recovering Mormon ask me my opinion of the show, and I have to confess I don't have one. I remember how shocked I was, growing up as a kid, to learn that our church had once practiced "plural marriage," and that being so I couldn't really understand why I wasn't allowed to play with the kid from the polygamist family up the block.

Just the mention of polygamy brings back all the complicated feelings about the issue I ever had. I remember sitting in priesthood meetings as a young elder and hearing all the men talk about how much they looked forward to practicing polygamy in the next life—or maybe in this one, if conditions were such that the church ever brought it back. I remember doubting strongly that such eager conversations were taking place in Relief Society meeting.

By the way, a lot of Mormons in good standing continued to practice polygamy well after the 1890 "Manifesto" against it. They practiced it with the winking approval of the First Presidency. This is why, after continuing skirmishes with the U.S. Congress, the church had to issue a Second Manifesto in 1904 to really *really* stop the practice. File *that* under "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."

I have also reached something of an accomodation with my family about discussing religion, though it helps that of eight children four of us have left the church in all. But I continue to write about Mormonism on the web, if at a much slower rate than I once did, and on occasion one side or the other breaks the truce and things get very ugly indeed for a while.

Comment regarding comparison of Christians and Mormons. From my experience with the local mormons in my area, (which completely dominate the religious population in our town), I would say that the reason I personally don't consider most mormons to be christians is because they do not act "Christ Like." To be Christian is to follow in his steps, to be understanding, to love without boundaries, to be non judgemental. Unfortunately in my town, again, in my "personal" experience I find most LDS people to be extremely judgemental of me because I don't follow their doctrine. If I choose to have a glass of wine in my community--I'm judged. If I choose to shop or play on Sunday--I'm judged. The people I've met in my life who were most "Christ like" didn't judge me, didn't try to pursuade me to join their particular religion, and were those people who lived an open life able to accept others. I don't belong to any organized religion at this point, but I know I couldn't become LDS for the ugliness I've seen in my community from its hard core followers. Again, just my experiencs, my opinions.

Heather - you are a brave, brave woman for opening up comments on this post....

It is never an easy thing to reject the religion of our parents without it feeling like a personal rejection of them. My father is a baptist minister. When I left the church as an adult, it was one of the hardest hurdles of our relationship in many ways. But one of the best complements he's ever given me came of it as well. He told me that he and my mother had raised me to think critically and to never accept blindly what I was told. And that, while he was disappointed by my decision, he had to respect it, and also the strong, thoughtful, intelligent woman who made it.

I'd be surprised if your parents didn't feel similarly about you...

When I started to read this, I kept waiting for the moment when I would cringe and think 'I can't believe she just said that!'
It never happened.
The reason for that, I think, is because you handled that perfectly. Got your point across in a completely unoffensive way.
Bravo,
~K

I have spent an undue amount of time today scrolling through the comments here. So many fascinating issues in one spot - religion, tolerance, gender roles, marriage. Thank you, Heather, for starting the discussion. The world needs more people thinking and talking and sharing and debating ideas, however different they may be.

I was happily reading along until one comment shot me out of my chair as if it had been set on fire.

Jack, your comment was very thoughtful and, to someone who knows very little about Mormonism, helpful in explaining some of the details on those subject. As a threshold matter, I'll just say that I do not have much of a concept of LDS theology or practice, nor do I ascribe any cult-like status to Mormonism or its followers. I'm a New Yorker, and I pretty much adhere to the philosophy that anything goes - everyone should do what works for them, so long as it doesn't trample on other people or their rights.

However.

This: "women can get jobs and still be considered good, faithful members of the church."

This is the kind of thing that breeds the view of a religion - whichever one it is (it happens that we're speaking about Mormonism, but could just as well be referring to something else, or even to a non-religious societal norm or group) - as intolerant and/or repressive. To say that a woman CAN get a job and "still be considered" a member of a group is to say that, well, generally, it's frowned upon but we won't excommunicate you for it. And the underlying message, at least as I am reading it, is that if you are a woman and you get a "job" (notably, not a "career") it had better be something that takes maybe two hours of your time each week and for Pete's sake doesn't interfere with the housewifing/child-tending that is your REAL job, Missy!

Not that there is ANYTHING wrong with staying at home or being the primary care provider for children (which gets back into the discussion of a few weeks ago on this site). But there should also not be ANYTHING wrong with a woman choosing to do whatever she wants with her life - whether it's becoming a Supreme Court Justice or being a janitor or having fifty kids.

To say that "They [women] are encouraged to take active roles in society, get educated, participate in politics, in neighborhoods, in service organizations, clubs, social groups," again, sounds to me that the default position is that women don't do these things, shouldn't do these things, but that someone has concluded that we'd-prefer-that-you-not-but-well-ok-if-it's-on-our-terms. Otherwise, you wouldn't even have to say it. It would just be, "Men and women are equal and the same rules of our group apply to both equally."

As I said, I know nothing about the religion itself and don't presume to know whether the majority of Mormons would agree with you, Jack (and I'm not attacking you personally; I'm just trying to deconstruct your statement); but I freak a little whenever I am confronted with or perceive a system under which women are not completely, 100% afforded the exact same opportunities as men. And not just that they are "allowed" to do these things, but supported in every way possible by their family, community, church (or non-church, as the case may be) and society at large to accomplish their goals. I feel the same way about gay marriage and all sorts of other civil rights - rights shouldn't just be "allowed" (i.e., not made illegal), but must be encouraged, supported and embraced by all members of a society.

As a long-time reader of this site and as a former member of the Church, I was delighted to see that you commented on this show.

I wrestled with whether I was going to watch Big Love as soon as I heard of its premire. While I've separated myself entirely from my former life, I am a staunch defender of the church (armed with annals of doctrine that WON'T LEAVE MY HEAD despite the fact that it would free up some dearly needed memory space) when I encounter gross misconceptions about what they believe. I spent my childhood being harassed as the only member in my school, and that stays with me to this day. My opinion is: if you're going to rail against the church, rail against actual fact and not rumor.

As expected, Big Love did make me squirm with all the inconsistencies. I felt that HBO had not done nearly enough research. Little things, like people exclaiming "Lord," or not closing a prayer correctly. More than that, though, it laid bare the very seed of my apostasy. Like you, women's and race issues are what gave me the impetus to leave for good. When I told my father (the most spiritual man I have ever known - he doesn't have faith, he has knowledge) I was leaving the church, I likened it to filling out a job application. If I saw a footnote at the end saying "*If you're black or a woman, you can't be the boss," I certainly wouldn't take that job.

As a great (x3) granddaugher of Amanda Barnes Smith and the Haun's Mill crew, I always defended polygamy as well, chalking it up to all the men getting massacred and women not being able to own land and whatnot. I reconciled it as a neccessary evil. But when I read your post, I realized something: my own father is sealed to both my mother and stepmother. He is, in essence, a spiritual polygamist. Like the Avon World Sales Leader, my own mother cannot be sealed to her current husband. I'm not sure how I feel about that at all. Polygamy was not considered a neccessary evil: it was the plan all along.

I could vent for days, but I'll close up. Thanks for your example. I look to this site daily for strength for fight my own battles with depression and loss of faith. Thanks for sharing your strength.

b

post scriptum: I had to go back through this post and un-capitalize "church." Old habits die hard.

Lawyerish, I have never felt unequal to any of the men in my church. I have always felt that it was a given that I get an education and feel fulfilled in my job, whether it be in the home or not.

Many people have said that when they felt judged or looked down upon by members of the LDS Faith. I am sorry you've felt this way, as it is our belief to love and care about everyone, regardless of their gender, race, religion etc. Remember that some people have their own prejudices. The entire Mormon church shouldn't be judged because of one or two members. The doctrine that we believe in is taught, and it is up to the members follow it. Some people don't follow it as well as others, which is true for nearly every religion.

Heather, did you realize this would be such a huge issue?!

Wow, this was so well written. I have so much I want to comment and say, but now I'm left speechless. Thank you for posting this, it's been thought provoking and enlightening. I'm a long time reader of your site and I totally love it. This has got to be one of my favorite posts from you.

I'm really enjoying "Big Love." My boyfriend and I are watching it together and after each viewing we talk about how hard it was to sit through that episode, for whatever reason. (Oh, and we both hate Nicki.) But we're still excited about the next weeks episode.

So far I've had to watch each episode twice because the first viewing usually totally freaks me out and I have to watch it again later in order to let it sink in a bit. I don't know that I've ever enjoyed a show this much that I have found this disturbing.

Thanks for articulating this so well--a colleague asked me yesterday what I thought about this show (I'm not LDS myself, but I grew up in a very LDS area in AZ), and I had a hard time explaining my conflicted reaction to it.

I think one of the things the show does well is to give the three women very different reactions to their situation--Barb does a good job as leader, but seems kind of resigned to it (mentioned to Bill's brother that she hated the fact that Bill had had to go to Roman to get $ to help her; Bill mentioned last week that she missed being mainstream LDS); Nikki (as Roman's daughter) seems to believe in the "principle" but is too selfish/controlling to really be comfortable as a second wife; Margene seems to have fallen into it as some sort of late-adolescent adventure.

Moments when everything works and they all get along, I can *almost* grudgingly see how it could be a tempting situation for some people (not for me). But. . .with all of the personalities and conflicting emotions, there are so few times when everything works.

And then to touch on the legal issues--Barb "covered" to the neighbor's wife by saying that Margene was a single mother "living next door" whom they'd taken under their wing, and that they owned the house on the other side and Nikki was their "tenant." This makes me think that only Barb (the legal wife) and their children together are covered under Bill's insurance, would have P.O.A. if something happened to him, etc. Hardly seems fair to the others, and not a situation I'd sign on for.

But--if anyone does see/get around to screening "Team" wife t-shirts. . .sign me up for a "Team Barb" in a small.

I was hoping you would post about this. I even said to my husband after we watched the first episode, "I can't wait to see what Dooce thinks of this show."

I just sent you a copy of an e-mail I received about this show from an LDS friend. They're instructed not to talk about this show at all to anyone who has questions and to forward everyone to their stake president. Why would this be? I would think they'd want to inform people, and answer questions. I guess I'm wrong.

I regularly read a few blogs and have only posted to one of them once. Obviously I am posting a comment now, so you must have really hit something with me today.

I appreciate that you decided (at least in this instance) to write about the complex factors of the Mormon religion and Mormon/non-Mormon family dynamics. I grew up Mormon in Oregon, currently live in Utah, and have four brothers and two sisters—all of whom have temple marriages and full-blown Mormon lifestyles. My dad was my bishop when I was a teenager; I had to confess my “sins” to him. My husband is African-Brazilian and a non-denominational Christian (grew up in Brazil) and even though he is my life partner and the person I confide in, I can’t convey to him what it is like to be in the middle of this weird family dynamic—I can’t convey it in the slightest. It is something that only people who have lived through it can understand. There is something reassuring about hearing from other former Mormons who I can relate to—even if it is only over the Internet. I hope to see you open up more about this, but I respect your decision if you decide not to. Thanks.

That was well written. I'm a reformed Mormon as well and I can so identify with some of the things you write and it is certainly one of the draws I feel to your blog. I have a different take on the polygamy stuff myself so it was never one of my tender spots with the church. I do think you just wrote a very elegant and non-offensive post though and think a lot more members should reflect further on this particular philosophy.

Wow, I definitely wrote that last comment at work - in between tasks. Even I was ticking from all the grammer errors.... sorry y'all! :)

Heather, thanks for such a wonderful post.

As a Catholic (albeit liberal) I am astounded to even read about an "absolute truth" in terms of hate from other "Christians." Absolute truth is fundamentalist legalese, it is a term designed to be used like mud...thrown and smeared to "prove" a point and hope it sticks.

I really appreciate Jack's comments and the use of the Mormon doctrine to establish some definitions. Very rarely have any Mormons that I have encountered been able explain doctrine to me.

I grew up in a college town in Northern California and there were 2 wards of Mormons(now there are 3.) Growing up, our family pediatrician was Mormon, a wonderful person with a wonderful family.

I find it very interesting that the girls who got pregnant at my high school, were all, and I mean ALL Mormon. About 5 girls a year. Then they would just kinda dissappear and show up married to some older guy about a year later. Not even joking. When I went off to college, none of the Mormons were having sex. Is this just a NorCal thing?

But I digress... The simple fact is that women are put/allowed/chosen to be in certain positions in organized religions based on BIOLOGY and the case for Original Sin. Are women who do not have the option of bearing or adopting children, without a calling? Or if that is your reality, do you put more time into a social group or club?

Jams, that was beautifully said. If I'd been less fired up when writing my own post, perhaps I could have sounded so eloquent. (I can dream, anyway). Thanks for such a civil, insightful commentary. Makes me realize mine was a bit -- raw. :)

Cool post Dooce. First you open up comments and now this... What's the world coming to? :)

I thought it would have been too easy for them to screw up a show based around Polygamy, but I have to hand it to HBO. Big Love is really well done. What a can of worms though... But maybe it's the right time for this discussion in mainstream America now.

I just want to point out a few things. I've read through the comments. There seems to be a general consensus that equates this show with the LDS Church.

1. It's a show. For entertainment. Of course they're not going to get everything right. There is no way they can portray the LDS church or These polygamist groups accurately or fairly. They do a little research and then slap together a show. A good show I might add.

2. No matter what kind of a spin you put on this, these polygamists are not Mormon. There really is no such thing as Mormon fundamentalism. If you practice polygamy you will be excommunicated. End of story. They are not Mormon. No matter what they call themselves or what the media calls them.

3. Once again. This is entertainment. It's a t.v. show. It's not going to destroy society or bring the LDS church crashing down around everyone's ears. Everyone is taking this far too seriously. Lighten up everyone. The church has been around for over a hundred years. It'll still be here when the show is cancelled.

4. If the LDS church ever allows polgamy again, I'll be the first one in line to sign up. Two husbands. Two incomes. I can be a stay at home "mom." Doesn't sound too bad to me. I can lay on the couch and eat bonbons all day and watch my soaps. Plus with two incomes I can hire a maid.

I also wanted to comment on a subject brought up in an earlier comment. Someone asked the following question. Let me respond to that as a gay mormon who has been through hell and back.

"One last question: Why is it that when we Christians say that we don't agree with homosexuality we are called homophobic and haters? "

I'm never quite sure what someone means when they say they don't "agree with homosexuality." It all boils down to the Christian viewpoint that we as homosexuals choose this lifestyle. That it's a conscious choice to be attracted to men. That all we have to do is accept Christ as our savior and voila! instant straight man. I can't help what I am. I've spent most of my adult life fighting this and trying to deny my sexuality. It's still here.

If you all can recall there was a time in the country when mixed marriages were treated the same as gay marriage. It wasn't going to happen. Why? Because the scriptures spoke out against it. Today that viewpoint is considered racist and hateful. So how is this different than gay marriage? It isn't. It's exactly the same. Therefore when you say you don't agree with homosexuality that makes you homophobic and a hater.

amarilis

I understand that being against homosexuality does not necessarily classify you as a hater or homophobic. I do not think you are "fearful of gays" nor do I think you hate them. I do think that the way you interpret your doctrine leads you to assume homosexuality is a moral problem instead of a biological fact. Thus, I suspect you feel gays are morally inferior. This is your right however it DOES mean you are heterosexist. Regardless, I am not against you being against the idea of homosexuality. I am, however against you having any say in it whatsoever. Whether I am allowed to marry or not should not be dependent on how you vote.

Heather...great post. I have been watching Big Love and thinking this is crazy...one woman is a lifetime journey. 3 women well that is just like trying to cover the globe whilst going 3 different directions. It isn't just counterproductive it's certifiable. Someone also asked if chuck was a polygamist... I thought all dogs were.

Sweetwife:

I dated a mormon guy while I was in grad school in Arkansas and I assure you, we were having sex.

Not really a comment, but, Boston Legal is about Polygamy tonight.

Thank you!!! My own feelings are similar to yours in all you said.

Although I'm still an active (selectively believing) LDS member, my husband is on his way out. Dealing with family is the scariest/hardest/least appealing thing for us as our views change and our understanding broadens.

As a member of the Heber C. tribe, I guess I have to thank polygamy for my existance. That being said, I don't believe it was ever ordained by God nor do I believe that it will be a way of living in the great hereafter. I refuse to spend time worrying about it. Big Love - yikes! I watch it with a horrified fascination. Why???? How??? I just can't get it. Maybe I'm just tooooo selfish. Again - thanks!

Wow, when did you open up comments?

I appreciate your viewpoint, as usual, and you stated your case very well. Me, I'm on the same page. Almost exactly. Might not state it as well, but I do okay, I guess.

What I haven't seen here is any comment on the email campaign the Mormons are currently conducting against HBO and BIG LOVE. Most exMos I know have received or seen the same email over and over again.

I just have to wonder what, if anything, they think they will achieve except to BRING notice to the show, which is exactly what HBO wants and needs.

Go figure

Natalie, your comment reminds me of something.

I grew up in Boston, where Catholic families almost always subscribed to (or, more likely, were just sent) a newspaper called The Pilot. Each week, the paper listed movies that Catholics were not supposed to see, based on their "questionable" content. Even as a sixth-grader, I was mad about this -- but certainly had no voice to argue it. I've still never been able to reconcile the idea that if god gave us free will, then who was humanity to dictate right and wrong (excluding obvious harm to others)? Since when is reading The Da Vinci Code going to corrode my moral character?

Puh-lease.

I can't believe I am going to actually attempt to comment on this. First of all I am a "conservative" Christian. Now it's in quotes because I am not a republican, I don't support Bush, I'm for gay Marriage. I go to a church whose tagline might as well be "A church for people who hate church". I believe strongly in social action and being involved in loving your community in practical ways. So what makes me conservative you ask? I hold to the belief that every word of the Bible is the inspired word of God.

So now the questions are flying from both sides.

I know this is a bit off topic and probably not what anyone wants to hear but since I really feel like I have to say something here goes.

The basic tenant of the Christian faith is that "all have sinned and fallen short". The Bible is very clear that no sin is any more grievous than any other, all sins are equal. (This may confuse some people especially those raised Mormon and probably some claiming to be Christian.) Jesus says if you think hatefully about a person you might has well have murdered him. This is not good news. It won't make any of you "good" people happy. It does level the playing field. If everyone has sinned then everyone equally deserves the punishment for that sin and equally requires divine intervention. So a white lie is equal to genocide. No individual person is more holy than any other. Mankind is only able to know God because of His divine grace.

I know this sounds preachy but I need you to understand how I can truly say I love homosexuals. I love them just like I love any other sinner (myself, husband and entire community included). We've all sinned. No one gets any special points for not hurting as many people or staying "moral". Sin is not actions that we should avoid, it is a heart or attitude that chooses to serve ourselves instead of serving God.

Jesus loved sinners. He did sit with the outcast and unwanted. And he forgave their sins.

I'm for gay marriage because if someone has chosen not to believe in God and what His word says than who am I to tell them how to live. We might as well outlaw greed and envy while we're at it, but those are so much harder to litigate.

In the end I just want to say that it is possible to believe homosexuality is a sin and not believe you are above (or more holy) than those who practice it. Also I want to echo the comments about the church being full of sinners. Please judge God from His word in the Bible not from the people that (claim to) follow Him. Our understanding of God has to start with understanding our sin but it always ends with his grace.

Thanks for posting Heather. I really appreciated your comments and am equally sad for a Mormon friend from high school whose husband left her barely a year after marrying her. I didn't realize the ramifications were so complex.

Last night on NPR I heard the replay of "This American Life." They were talking about Elizabeth Smart and how many in Salt Lake City who saw her assumed she was her captor's second wife. There was some interesting commentary that related to my class's discussion of invisibility. I really like what you've said here and will link it to my entry. Thanks for commenting on this subject.